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  1. #61
    Senior Member Rank = Jussai smartin's Avatar
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    Hi Jason,
    look forward to your results, put enough in to cover the water surface like RS did so we can see the water tinges better....
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  3. #62
    IMG_20200801_105519.jpg

    So, this is after 1h20m, (sorry we had to go out). The large pellets on the left are Medikoi Health, and the small dark pellets on the right are Coppens OSW.

    You can clearly see the Medikoi has turned the water yellow, whereas the OSW has made no discernible difference to the water colour. The yellow colour from the Medikoi came out after about 20 mins, but considering the food would be gone in several minutes this would never be able to happen.

    I didn't swirl these as the time wasn't up at this time, but both food had an equal amount of suspended solids, although I don't think these show up in the picture.

    I'm not sure what conclusion you can draw from this experiment, as as I said above it took 20mins for the colour to come out of the Medikoi and you should never have food in the pond that long anyway, and as I stated at the start of this thread I don't get any poo come out of the fish from the Medikoi, but get huge amounts from the Coppens.

    Jay

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  5. #63
    IMG_20200801_130717.jpg

    So this is after 3h20m and has had a really good stir.

    You can now see both foods have discoloured the water and have really started to break up, so lots of fines floating around.

    As I said previously though, you shouldn't ever have food floating around in your pond, so this shouldn't be an issue.

    From this the Medikoi looks worse than the Coppens, however in reality it's the complete opposite and by an infinite amount.

    Hope it helps,

    Jay

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  7. #64
    Senior Member Rank = Jussai smartin's Avatar
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    thanks for the experiment, i think both foods are good quality and agree with you ref the minimal waste from the medikoi, its just getting expensive now, OSW far more affordable and from in depth studies done by RS200 the ingredients are the same as many others but not as dear, Saki is in its own class however if you can afford it, like you say if it sits around in your pond over time your going to get staining in your water....
    2200 gallons, infinity window, BD
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  9. #65
    Hi Smartin, thanks for the reply.

    I'm very sceptical about ingredients lists, I don't know if the fish food industry is regulated or not, our food industry is meant to be and we constantly get scandals, horse meat being a huge recent one.

    If you look at the ingredients listed for the Medikoi Health it doesn't sound very good in comparison to a lot of other foods, but I think it's incredible, as Ive said many times before, no waste and amazing growth rates. The ingredients would not suggest either of those things.

    Now the ingredients of the OSW would suggest big things, but so far I've got incredible amounts of waste, sludgy, stinky filters, large fish that have visibly got slimmer, and small fish that have slowed growing. None of that is what you'd expect from the listed ingredients.

    So I'm to ignore ingredients, or take them with a pinch of salt, and just monitor growth and waste. I'm certainly not going to be stupid enough to buy 15kg of an unknown food again.

    I'm genuinely very close to throwing what I have left and buying more Medikoi.

    Jay

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  11. #66
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    I feed queni jap growth. And coppens OSW
    Also feed jap mix.
    Years ago before I got serious with koi pond.
    I used to only feed peaches and cream.
    And my fish grew real big. And I mean a about 20 of them
    Now my fish are mid to large. On average in size. Of all the fish bought since a different pond that's larger. In size. And peaches and cream is laughed at by koi keepers now. But for growth I had some big fish.
    It used to leave an oil slick.
    Fred

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  13. #67
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Megson View Post
    IMG_20200801_105519.jpg



    I'm not sure what conclusion you can draw from this experiment, as as I said above it took 20mins for the colour to come out of the Medikoi and you should never have food in the pond that long anyway, and as I stated at the start of this thread I don't get any poo come out of the fish from the Medikoi, but get huge amounts from the Coppens.

    Jay
    Me neither in all honesty, but you might suspect that what goes into the fishie at one end, will eventually leave out the other end.

    So the food might not be floating in the pond for more than 20 mins clouding the water before being eaten,, but its still in the pond right up until either the Koi turns it into energy or the filter takes it away so it could be clouding the water between coming out of the fish and being filtered.

    That's my thinking, but I don't know exactly what happens to the food when its in the koi.

    Maybe its the same as how a Vindaloo stinks out your house when you first have it delivered, then your bathroom 24 hours later.

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  15. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    I regret buying the Yamato since discovering it is Coppens food in expensive JPD packaging.

    That wouldn't normally bother me but the fact the JPD website claims all their foods are only manufactured in Japan is somewhat dishonest.

    Someone also told me that if you compare JPD from Japan to JPD bought in the UK the food inside is totally different.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
    It might be made at the coppens factory. But it is not the same food. It is developed by JPD together with altech who owns coppens. The ingredients might look similar. But it is not.

    Coppens altech is one of the biggest factory's in Europe and they make fish food and koi food for many brand's. And if you want to order a minimum of five ton. You can get your food made exactly how you want it.

    Try get the coppens own line of food and compare it to JPD. They don't even look similar. Despite being made at the same factory.

    The new yamato is developed with altech. And it's so successful the Japanese version sold in japan is from altech coppens to.

    The coppens own food is amazing stuff to. But it is not the same as jpd. Jpd wheat's are not the same. Even the fish meal is not the same as in coppens own line. It is shipped in from Malaysia and are only being used in JPDs line.

    If I'm not mistaking. Medikoi is also made at the altech factory.

  16. #69
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kennethjensen View Post
    It might be made at the coppens factory. But it is not the same food. It is developed by JPD together with altech who owns coppens. The ingredients might look similar. But it is not.

    Coppens altech is one of the biggest factory's in Europe and they make fish food and koi food for many brand's. And if you want to order a minimum of five ton. You can get your food made exactly how you want it.

    Try get the coppens own line of food and compare it to JPD. They don't even look similar. Despite being made at the same factory.

    The new yamato is developed with altech. And it's so successful the Japanese version sold in japan is from altech coppens to.

    The coppens own food is amazing stuff to. But it is not the same as jpd. Jpd wheat's are not the same. Even the fish meal is not the same as in coppens own line. It is shipped in from Malaysia and are only being used in JPDs line.

    If I'm not mistaking. Medikoi is also made at the altech factory.
    I don't disagree and maybe I should have worded my opening sentence better in that the food is made by Coppens as opposed to necessarily being Coppens food.

    But the fact remains I've not been impressed with the JPD food I've tried, nor the clouding/browning of the water. Furthermore considering the vast variety of Koi foods available, the dishonest claim on JPDs own website that all JPD food is manufactured in Japan is good enough for me to dismiss considering it again in the future.

    Sadly I can't prove that point at the moment because their website home page has been hacked and re-directs you to a scam page.

    I also believe the person who told me JPD food in Japan looks different, feels different and smells different to the JPD food offered for sale in the UK.

    Another point to make is the price. We are often told that food imported from Japan / Asia is very expensive compared to European foods due to the red tape and various hoops manufacturers have to comply with to get their products onto our shelves, yet JPD food from Coppens is just as expensive as other imported foods, and still more expensive than most European branded foods.

  17. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    I don't disagree and maybe I should have worded my opening sentence better in that the food is made by Coppens as opposed to necessarily being Coppens food.

    But the fact remains I've not been impressed with the JPD food I've tried, nor the clouding/browning of the water. Furthermore considering the vast variety of Koi foods available, the dishonest claim on JPDs own website that all JPD food is manufactured in Japan is good enough for me to dismiss considering it again in the future.

    Sadly I can't prove that point at the moment because their website home page has been hacked and re-directs you to a scam page.

    I also believe the person who told me JPD food in Japan looks different, feels different and smells different to the JPD food offered for sale in the UK.

    Another point to make is the price. We are often told that food imported from Japan / Asia is very expensive compared to European foods due to the red tape and various hoops manufacturers have to comply with to get their products onto our shelves, yet JPD food from Coppens is just as expensive as other imported foods, and still more expensive than most European branded foods.
    Well. There is two websites for jpd. The Japanese and the EU version. The Japanese version is only sold in Japan and sometimes in US. The EU version is as stated only sold in EU. And it does not say anywhere it's made in Japan. But designed in Japan

    I've tested the yamato. And I haven't got any brown water by it and so shouldn't you. If you get that. I would contact JPD EU and tell them. Cause your batch might have a issue. But to be honest. I don't think yamato is such a great color food..

    I tried the coppens osw. And it stained my water like crazy. But there top koi didn't. Go figure!? I like the coppens top koi for smaller koi as they grow like crazy on it. But the filters are getting there work cut out hehe. But that's to be expected.

    If I'm not mistaking. Shiro is a ton better color food than yamato.

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  19. #71
    Hi Kenneth,

    You really sound like you've researched Coppens.

    You say your filters are getting a workout with the top koi, do you mean there is a lot of waste (poo) with it?

    If Medikoi is produced by Coppens, it is very clear they don't use the same ingredients as there is no waste with Medikoi health at all.

    The more I read about foods the less I trust any other brand and the more I think I should just stick to Medikoi.

    Jay

  20. #72
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kennethjensen View Post
    Well. There is two websites for jpd. The Japanese and the EU version. The Japanese version is only sold in Japan and sometimes in US. The EU version is as stated only sold in EU. And it does not say anywhere it's made in Japan. But designed in Japan

    I've tested the yamato. And I haven't got any brown water by it and so shouldn't you. If you get that. I would contact JPD EU and tell them. Cause your batch might have a issue. But to be honest. I don't think yamato is such a great color food..

    I tried the coppens osw. And it stained my water like crazy. But there top koi didn't. Go figure!? I like the coppens top koi for smaller koi as they grow like crazy on it. But the filters are getting there work cut out hehe. But that's to be expected.

    If I'm not mistaking. Shiro is a ton better color food than yamato.
    In all honesty when paying the price they charge for their foods, they only get one chance. If the food is poor, which for me and a few others on here it has been, then I don't buy it again. My pond water is literally brown and that can only be from the foods I'm currently feeding.

    Website definitely stated their food is made in Japan, as I've quoted the exact wording on here before. I'll see if I can get a cached copy of the text.

    EDIT: JPD website still under the control of hackers and full of malicious links, but cached homepage no longer shows the claim of all JPD food being made in Japan. The other claim that JPD food never clouds the water has also been removed. There was a JPD promotional video comparing JPD food with Saki foods and demonstrating Saki foods cloud the water whereas JPD does not, but cannot now find that video either.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
    Last edited by RS2OOO; 04-08-2020 at 09:08 PM.

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  22. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Megson View Post
    Hi Kenneth,

    You really sound like you've researched Coppens.

    You say your filters are getting a workout with the top koi, do you mean there is a lot of waste (poo) with it?

    If Medikoi is produced by Coppens, it is very clear they don't use the same ingredients as there is no waste with Medikoi health at all.

    The more I read about foods the less I trust any other brand and the more I think I should just stick to Medikoi.

    Jay
    I always tend to research what I put in my pond. Oh and a friend of mine works there.

    Yeah. My filters are getting dirty very fast with top koi. But I do run old school filters with japp matts and Vortex.

    It's a jungle knowadays getting koi food. I usely use FD food. But its getting to darn expensive and it has a lot of fines and oil's in it. Been using JPD for years. But mostly shiro. But I did notice that some of the EU JPD is not as good as the Japanese version. But that's due to the Japanese version has some larvae ect in it. And those are not legat to sent out of Japan sadly. So the change the ingredients to insect and plants.

    The coppens orange food I really like. And not much waste from it. When I mix that with shiro. I get fenomenal results.

  23. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    In all honesty when paying the price they charge for their foods, they only get one chance. If the food is poor, which for me and a few others on here it has been, then I don't buy it again. My pond water is literally brown and that can only be from the foods I'm currently feeding.

    Website definitely stated their food is made in Japan, as I've quoted the exact wording on here before. I'll see if I can get a cached copy of the text.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
    I hear you. I wouldn't to. But I do like the shori. But I mix it with coppens orange and FD food supplement. And are getting some serious growth and color on my kois.

    There is no denying it. Coppens can and do make some great food. So does JPD. But not everything from them is good. And if it clouds your water. Then I wouldn't use it. Brown tint could be because you have to much proteins in your water. And if you then add some colour food to it. Then the water goes dark and murky very fast. Within days

  24. #75
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kennethjensen View Post
    Brown tint could be because you have to much proteins in your water. And if you then add some colour food to it. Then the water goes dark and murky very fast. Within days
    You might be right there because that's exactly what I'm feeding, 51% protein Coppens food and JPD colour food.

    Strangely though I never get the protein bubbles that so many people complain about.

    I would estimate 150 grams a day of pellets going in and about 25-50 grams of other foods prominently mussels and mealworm.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

  25. #76
    Hi Kenneth,

    Thanks for the reply about top Koi, it sounds very similar to the OSW regarding waste.

    Jay

  26. #77
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    I did some analysis comparisons between JPD Yamato (colour food containing spirulina and astaxanthin) and discovered OSW contains significantly more of both those ingredients.

    As already stated I've been feeding Yamato alongside Top Koi to help with colour but again Top Koi actually contains more of those active ingredients.

    But it is impossible to know how much is enough and how much is too much.

    Either way, both are staining my water so once I've got through the last 18kg I'll be looking for a different food, but still want to try the OSW at some point.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

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  28. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    I did some analysis comparisons between JPD Yamato (colour food containing spirulina and astaxanthin) and discovered OSW contains significantly more of both those ingredients.

    As already stated I've been feeding Yamato alongside Top Koi to help with colour but again Top Koi actually contains more of those active ingredients.

    But it is impossible to know how much is enough and how much is too much.

    Either way, both are staining my water so once I've got through the last 18kg I'll be looking for a different food, but still want to try the OSW at some point.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
    Osw is great food to. But also stains the water. Try probites. I've used a ton of it and no water issue's with it. Thinking about going back to it when I'm running out of JPD and FD.

    In general, color food can stain the water badly if the filters can't handle it. My main pond is handling any color food rather ok. But if I overfeed and that happens hehe. Then I get some fines. Probites isn't that expensive neither.

  29. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    You might be right there because that's exactly what I'm feeding, 51% protein Coppens food and JPD colour food.

    Strangely though I never get the protein bubbles that so many people complain about.

    I would estimate 150 grams a day of pellets going in and about 25-50 grams of other foods prominently mussels and mealworm.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
    There are different levels of protein in the water. From food and from waste. Typically food proteins tends to make foam and waste protein tends to cloud the water.

    I'm feeding around 400-500 grams a day to 18 kois in a 13.000 liter pond. But my filter is also around 2000 liter.

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  31. #80
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Hassai NickK-UK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kennethjensen View Post
    Osw is great food to. But also stains the water. Try probites. I've used a ton of it and no water issue's with it. Thinking about going back to it when I'm running out of JPD and FD.

    In general, color food can stain the water badly if the filters can't handle it. My main pond is handling any color food rather ok. But if I overfeed and that happens hehe. Then I get some fines. Probites isn't that expensive neither.
    Not sure your point here. You seem to be suggesting the problem is bad filtration rather than food leaching. I tend to look at solving the cause, especially as most filters other than RO'd pond water will not remove colourants (rather than particles) form the water.

    I would say not leaving the food in the water for any time other than the fish are actively eating it would also be a cause.
    1700 litres on 50 watts
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