Thread: Test results

I thought GH was always higher than KH, think one of those tests might be wrong? Maybe give bottles a really good shake and retest GH and KH?

I find it hard to take seriously anyone who consistently tries to prove that water quality tests aren't necessary when they post statements like this:

"The reason why no one tests water quality using kits in Japan is that activating the KOI itself purifies the water...."

Yes.
That line got me chuckling too....
...I'm just off to activate my wife so she purifies the house...

Looks like chatGPT is in overdrive at the moment.

Sent from my Pixel 8 using Tapatalk

Feeding is feeding.
Water quality is water quality.

You clearly feel that you have a good grasp of the former.
If you, self confessed, have little understanding of the latter, please stop spamming posts that have a very clear narrative.

POND OWNER WANTS ADVICE ON KH

your response:

WHY DON'T YOU MOVE YOUR FISH TO JAPAN, WHERE THE SEASONS ARE MORE DEFINED.
OR START HEATING IN THE SUMMER.

Neither of which have anything to do with KH.

Moving bed filters commonly used in the UK, in less hard water areas, will very likely need dosing to counter act the KH dropping.
This is common knowledge.

Suggesting that a UK pond owner doesn't test for KH is actually very bad advice. You must be unaware of this, so I'm assuming you do not use moving bed filtration.

Otherwise, I am no expert on water quality and testing either.
SO I KEEP QUIET ABOUT IT.
It's annoying otherwise.

If you want to contribute, then please start a pond build thread, put some photos of your pond, filtration and maintenance regime on there and we can chat about it there, where it's relevant. Once we understand how your pond works, you could explain your feeding regime and let us know how you 'activtate' your Koi, using specific examples.
My suspicion is that to use a lot of fresh water, dumping bottom drains to waste every day or simply have the luxury of a large volume of water. None of which is practical for most hobbyists in the UK. But I'm guessing, so who knows? Please inform us, in the correct way and Perhaps we'll all learn something from exchanging that sort of information.

In the mean time, stop spamming other people's threads please.

Originally Posted by Naoki Atsumi

It was anticipated beforehand that people from different schools of thought would not be understood when approached.
That is because we have no experience of keeping river shrimps, so why do we need such detailed data on water quality? It would be the same as not knowing how to reflect on it and use it for improvement.

The correlation between KOI's activity and dirt-resistant water is clear, (Remove nervousness and reduce vigilance to zero.)

The water in ponds where KOI activation has been achieved is shiny and glossy. Perhaps the more active the KOI, the higher the digestion rate and the more the water seems to have a glossy appearance due to the overall effect.
If the KOI is frequently scooped up into a bowl or touched during the feeding period, the water will never become mature. This is a common perception we share in our experience.

I thought it was national differences or something that made these stories so difficult to get across, but apparently not.

A carp farmer from the west of England who often appears in my list mentions nitrite and ammonia in his ponds, of course, but he also talks about improving the whole ecosystem of the ponds, including the revitalisation of the KOI itself, which is something we have a strong affinity with and fully deserve to understand.

Therefore, as the KOI itself is a fish in dirty downstream waters, existing aquarium practices are often not very helpful, and it is more practical and beneficial to follow the breeders and farmer's lead in annual planning.

It is hoped that more people will share the common feeling that improving the swimming and feeding behaviour of KOI will stabilise water quality and lead to water purification, rather than focusing on each individual test score.

I normally stay out of these threads rather than criticise what is posted because it's normally amusing and harmless. However, encouraging people who read this nonsense to not test their water because koi somehow purify it is dangerously misleading to anyone who is inexperienced and looking for information or guidance.

So, to demonstrate whether you understand water, here are a few questions about what is, arguably, the two most important parameters that sensible UK koi keepers monitor and I would appreciate direct answers not waffle. In return I will give direct answers to any questions you put to me after you have answered these:

• Do you understand what a pH crash is?
• Do you accept that a pH crash in a pond will rapidly cause numerous fish deaths?
• Do you understand how KH (carbonate hardness / alkalinity) stabilises pH and prevents a crash?
• Do you understand why KH declines in ponds in areas with soft water supplies?
• How would a koi prevent KH declining to a near zero value and the resultant pH crash?

It's great, you can say you would like to know the name of an acer tree and will get a reply saying that without vigorous summer feeding you will never grow an acer!

We want to know about your pond.

Originally Posted by Naoki Atsumi

Sorry I have little knowledge about them. As I have told you, I lived in northern Cheshire for a number of years and visited quite a few ponds and never came across such a story.

Other than that, I have seen many ponds in the south, in Portsmouth, South Wales and Kent, and in Yorkshire and Nottingham, and there are countless lakes all over the UK where I have seen carp being farmed.

And in recent years, I have seen people who have achieved good results with proper heating and feeding, albeit on a piecemeal basis, and they do not seem to have any particular water quality problems.

I have heard vaguely that there are some areas in the south of the country where the water is not suitable for KOI keeping, but unfortunately I have not had the opportunity to visit those areas.

Are these problems you describe universal across the UK?

I don't enjoy criticising people but your posts saying that we shouldn't test water are dangerously misleading to inexperienced hobbyists as I said in my last post especially as you've now confirmed that you don't understand the difference between hard and soft water or the dangers of a pH crash.

Soft water isn't a "problem", as you suggest, and there are many areas in the UK and in other countries where the supply water is soft or medium hard and this can best be described as a characteristic of the supply rather than an isolated problem. In fact many hobbyists and breeders artificially soften their water to gain the benefits of a low TDS.

There are no areas in the UK where the water is unsuitable for koi keeping but water in any area should be managed to ensure it stays within accepted limits and this is even more important than managing feeding. An expression I heard when I first began this hobby is:

"We don't keep fish, we keep water"

The meaning of this should be obvious. Koi will thrive in good water but will not thrive if the water quality is poor and they may become unhealthy or even die if the vital parameters are so neglected that they become too far from acceptable values. This expression, or its many variations is well understood and repeated in the many countries where my students reside.

The best approach for hobbyists to adopt is to regularly test their water and take action according to the results. I, along with many other people who understand water parameters and give advice, suggest that water should be tested at least every two weeks or more often where the pH is consistently low, whether by choice to enjoy the benefits of low TDS water or by the characteristics of their water supply.

I calculated the chart below to show what parameters should be tested and what action should be taken if the results are outside acceptable limits. Please note that ammonia and nitrite are also responsible for health problems or even fatalities if neglected and allowed to fall outside acceptable limits.

Since you've confirmed that you don't understand the basics of testing water or the risks of not testing, could I please ask you to withdraw your comments telling us we shouldn't test water?



If anyone wants a copy of my ammonia chart and parameter guide that can be laminated for future reference, there is one in the document library on my website. Follow the instructions at the bottom of this page to download and print:
Ammonia chart (mankysanke.co.uk)

You are missing the point the correlation between testing water and feeding fish. When you heavily feed fish the KH is gradually depleted and therefore you risk a PH crash. You cannot just blindly feed fish and ignore water testing or you will literally poison your fish to death it is basic science. I changed my filter in spring and have had to keep and eye on my water all summer.
I have been feeding as heavy as I can but even so after 3 days of heavy feeding I have a nitrite reading of 0.5. If I just continued to up feeding without testing my water I would raise that more and more until the fish were poisoned to death. They already get the odd mark on them from the nitrite reaching that level which goes away after the rest day of feeding and a water change.
To tell people to blindly feed fish with disregard to water quality is suicide and highly irresponsible.

Originally Posted by Naoki Atsumi

We understand what you are saying.
However, we generally fine-tune them over a long period of time by closely observing and feeling the KOI's swimming, behaviour, water appearance and body surface changes, which is why such kits are not widespread at all.

A foreign manufacturer called Tetra once spent a considerable amount of money promoting kits and other aquarium keeping methods to Japanese Koi hobbyists, but we did not and still do not accept it.

We don't tell you to copy everything, but this is the truth.

What is the standard level of water changes for Japanese hobbyists? If I fed the fish based on their willingness to feed and disregard for the filters or water parameters the whole pond would likely be dead within a month or two.

Originally Posted by Naoki Atsumi

Due to my own lack of knowledge, I have looked into the correlation between kh and pH and other things, but it seems that the term pH crash, which you point out, is expressed here as pH shock, and countless people have mentioned these problems, where the correlation with kh is also discussed in detail.

pH shock（pHショック）
As you can see, this is a serious problem that needs to be addressed, not only by river shrimp keepers, but also by keepers of Asian arowanas and the recently popular MEDAKA fish.

On the other hand, you can see that this is not even a topic of conversation among KOI keepers, and in the middle section there are two KOI, one of which was shocked by a difference in water temperature during transport, and the other was infected with KOI columnaris bacteria in early spring, which is common here, and the owner was shocked by gill disease. In both cases the word ”SHOCK” was caught and displayed in the search and had nothing to do with the pH crash as you call it.

I don't want to inhibit people's behaviour here, but no one in Japan still uses test kits, and talking about Kh and pH seems to be a problem in other ornamental fish circles, but most people here don't even know the words.

So those who want to use kits to constantly check water quality can do so, but almost no one has mentioned improving feeding behaviour and promoting swimming behaviour, which everyone here talks about as a top priority, so I think those are more important, don't you? I'm just recommend you to do that.

I would also like to know if anyone knows of any connection with the manufacturers of test kits etc. as to the reasons for the transition that has led to the spread of many aquarium practices amongst KOI keepers since I left the UK.

I despair that someone could be so misinformed about the two most important water parameters and yet continue to say that water testing is unimportant so let's switch this back to feeding which you mentioned earlier and, maybe, we could teach you something important about koi husbandry.

So I know where to begin, do you understand what KH (carbonate hardness) is and why feeding causes it to deplete?

What happens if feeding causes the KH to fall to a near zero level?