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  1. #1

    Katashigoi spitting food

    Afternoon all. Hoping for some advice. I have a Karashigoi spitting food really regularly. Looks well enough despite this and does eat a somewhere close to half what it gets in its mouth, but spits the other half. Itís been doing it for a while now, 5 or 6 weeks that Iíve noticed.

    Iím aware this is a symptom of gill flukes so I have scraped twice and found nothing. I havenít done a gill scrape as it petrifies me, but Iíve done the normal three scrapes and a fourth right around the gills and found nothing. Water details below:

    pH: 8.4
    GH and KH: liquid rock high
    Ammonia: 0 (did have a spike to 0.25ppm two weeks ago when stepped up feeding, but long gone now)
    Nitrite: 0
    Nitrate: 60 ppm
    Heated to 24 Celsius

    Large bio capacity, drum filter and strong flow now the heavy feeding has started. Pond just short of 3500 gallons.

    I havenít noticed any other fish spitting.

    So - any ideas? Just a fish that grabs more than it can chew at once? Didnít know if I should be worried or notÖ


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  3. #2
    Couldnít figure out how to edit the title - was supposed to be Karashigoi.


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  5. #3
    What Iíd do is observe other fish very closely during feeding time - if you see any other fish spitting you can bet money on its gill irritation - unless you got some chemicals in water itís 99.99% flukes. Doesnít have to be gill flukes as skin flukes can be in gills too. Even if your scraps are clean Iíd consider up flukes treatment.

    IF, however, this is REALLY a single fish spitting - from my experience it can be two reasons: 1) too much food, especially some fish annoying choose to swallow and spit and play with food - as opposed to just not put too much food on mouth when not hungry. 2) fussy eater, if your food freshly opened from this year or a left over pack from last season? Some fish are just picky and when not hungry donít fancy old food

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  7. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by NamoAmituofo View Post
    What Iíd do is observe other fish very closely during feeding time - if you see any other fish spitting you can bet money on its gill irritation - unless you got some chemicals in water itís 99.99% flukes. Doesnít have to be gill flukes as skin flukes can be in gills too. Even if your scraps are clean Iíd consider up flukes treatment.

    IF, however, this is REALLY a single fish spitting - from my experience it can be two reasons: 1) too much food, especially some fish annoying choose to swallow and spit and play with food - as opposed to just not put too much food on mouth when not hungry. 2) fussy eater, if your food freshly opened from this year or a left over pack from last season? Some fish are just picky and when not hungry donít fancy old food
    I doubt itís the food, itís fresh Saki Hikari.

    My gut was flukes too, but Iím loathe to treat when scrapes are clear. Iíll give it a few days and scrape again.


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  9. #5
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion john1's Avatar
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    Hi there Tom, sorry to hear your having more probs which you dont need.
    Ok so it's one koi spitting food out and no others,I would be cutting back on food to see what happens,maybe flukes maybe not but see what happens when they get hungry.
    So you have scraped Tom and nothing ok that's eliminating,I am not an expert as you know Tom will ask Paddy what to do if that's ok.
    John

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  11. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by john1 View Post
    Hi there Tom, sorry to hear your having more probs which you dont need.
    Ok so it's one koi spitting food out and no others,I would be cutting back on food to see what happens,maybe flukes maybe not but see what happens when they get hungry.
    So you have scraped Tom and nothing ok that's eliminating,I am not an expert as you know Tom will ask Paddy what to do if that's ok.
    Thanks John. As I say, everything seems tip top. Cutting back on the food and see what happens is a good shout, because it is a real pig.


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  13. #7
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion john1's Avatar
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    Paddy reckons you need to do a gill scrape,can see the point if the gills are irritating when then they eat then can be flukes but you need a gill scrape Tom to be sure.
    John

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    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion john1's Avatar
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    Sorry to hear your going through this crap Tom as you dont need it after what you have been going through.
    John

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    Senior Member Rank = Nanasai Naoki Atsumi's Avatar
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    Another product with a name reminiscent of Japan?
    KUSURI is also a direct translation of DRUGS, which is why its packaging is so surprising.

  18. #10
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion g mac's Avatar
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    Tom I still had one of my fish doing the same after a number of fluke treatments, just the one fish, all others seemed recovered. Gave it a five minute salt bath at the recommend dose (I can check the level if you need it) and that seemed to do the trick.
    7500 litres
    Filtreau combi with uv.
    Some koi

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  20. #11
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    I have a few that spit pellets from time to time and have been doing it for years.

    I've found flukes in the past, treated, not found flukes again and they'll still do it.

    Usually in the mornings, but not in the evenings.

    I have found food spitting to possibily be related to a number of things over the years, but never nailed down the true cause.

    Considerations, in order of liklihood:

    • Flukes (usually gill but can be skin)
    • Costia - Have definitely identified spitting associated with Costia outbreaks.
    • Tooth ache or tooth shedding (might spit for a few days then go back to eating fine).
    • Water parameter changes, particularly pH.
    • Chlorine or some treatments such as CT, Virkon etc.
    • Digestive tract irritation or general digestive issues (advised to me when I queried with Paula Reynolds).



    To help narrow things down, try feeding cooked mussels or mealworms and see if the fish still spits. If they eat that food without issue I think it is less likely to be a serious problem requiring immediate treatment, but still something to keep an eye on and try to eventually get to the bottom of.

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  22. #12
    Thanks very much for the replies. All make sense.

    Iíve got mussels in the freezer so thatís an easy way to start.

    If that fails, Iíll give the fill scrape a go. I did watch Paddy do it so seeing it first hand before gives the confidence to have a go and be gentle.

    @RS2000 - I hadnít even thought about tooth ache/shedding.

    Iím not overly concerned because all parameters are great and they are eating well and have scraped clean for weeks now.

    Iíll keep you posted Katashigoi spitting foodKatashigoi spitting food


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  24. #13
    Well the mussels went down a treat with all of them. The Karagoshi munched at least two that I saw with no spitting and possibly had a third, another fish was in the way so I couldnít see. Knowing what a pig it is, I suspect it did get the third.

    Iím going to leave it a couple of days and then try a gill scrape. Iím beginning to suspect itís not a parasite problem and maybe one from RS2000ís list.

    Iíve got to say - without wanting to curse anything - the pond is looking superb at the moment. Iíve got everything crossed Katashigoi spitting food


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  26. #14
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion john1's Avatar
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    Good shout from Rs and hope it works for you Tom,I would leave them a few days and see how they get on.
    John

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    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shropshire_Tom View Post
    Well the mussels went down a treat with all of them. The Karagoshi munched at least two that I saw with no spitting and possibly had a third, another fish was in the way so I couldn’t see. Knowing what a pig it is, I suspect it did get the third.

    I’m going to leave it a couple of days and then try a gill scrape. I’m beginning to suspect it’s not a parasite problem and maybe one from RS2000’s list.

    I’ve got to say - without wanting to curse anything - the pond is looking superb at the moment. I’ve got everything crossed Katashigoi spitting food


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    Thanks for the update.

    If you do come across any parasites or other potential causes over the summer, please update the thread. It would be great to get to the bottom of why this happens.

    I currently have 3 spitting pellets in the mornings but not in the evenings, and like with yours they'll devour mussels without a hint of spitting. I witnessed my Ochiba (the one with the skin issues I've talked about in another thread) flashing yesterday (she was also spitting pellets), so another scrape is on the cards for her sometime this week, and I'll update here if I find anything.

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  30. #16
    Will do.

    For everyoneís info who might read the thread in the future:

    Checked my chlorine levels again today and found none. I have been checking every three days and have never found any chlorine.

    During this spitting episode, Iíve been checking Ammonia and Nitrate daily and Iím back down to zero of each after a very small spike which lasted 24h.


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  32. #17
    I had the heron net off last night for some maintenance so bit the bullet and netted the karashigoi again. Sedated and very gently did a gill scrape and the normal three.

    Firstly - big thanks again to Paddy and John who showed me how to do when they visited to help. No way would I have attempted without their demonstration for me.

    The gill scrape is petrifying. Iím not sure Iíll ever get used to doing that! The gills themselves are so delicate and look so sensitive.

    I got a normal amount of mucous from everywhere. The gills didnít have much at all, but I did get enough for a scrape.

    After pouring over over every slide in minute detail, I didnít find anything at all. Not a single parasite of any description. I did each slide at both 40x and 100x and spent close two and a half hours studying them going right through the mucous and surrounding water and didnít find anything at all.

    Iím really glad, I was petrified I was going to find gill flukes or something like costia. I have again checked all water parameters and all are still fine.

    The Karagoshi itself recovered from the sedation well and is munching away this morning, albeit still spitting some food.

    It continued to eat at least 50% of what it grabs and other than the spitting, shows no other symptoms whatsoever of any issues. I will keep observing, but canít honestly point to anything categoric. Tooth ache or digestive upset may well be the issue, as RS2000 suggested.

    I will update this thread next week but at the moment, I am putting it down to something outside of my control.


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  34. #18
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion john1's Avatar
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    Well done Tom for making the effort with the gill scrape on your own,it is a very delicate affair and not one I enjoy doing.
    So, nothing found all you can do is wait and see what goes on as it's only the one koi.
    Keep in touch with your updates Tom.
    John

  35. #19
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Great update Tom.

    To update on mine, took 2 slides from the Ochiba tonight as her skin is not improving, she's eating but not putting on weight, she's spitting food in the mornings as are 2 or 3 others, and I've seen her flash and dart about looking very irritated.

    One slide was clean.
    The 2nd slide had one single Costia on one extremity, and what I think was another Costia at the opposite end of the slide. This 2nd Costia had the right shape which went almost flat as it spun round on the spot, but it was big, clearly visible at x100, so I couldn't be certain if it was definitely a Costia, but it showed only Costia characteristics.

    So with at least 1 definite identification I know Costia are present but the numbers are low.

    Since the pond still has 0.4% salt I've ordered Kusuri Acriflavine and Malachite premix and will run a course of that next week.

    After treatment I'll update on whether pellet spitting has stopped, and more importantly whether the Ochibas skin starts healing.

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    Last edited by RS2OOO; 11-07-2024 at 11:48 PM.

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