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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Shropshire_Tom View Post
    Had I hope John! I scraped two weeks after the last ICC treatment and that little Tancho that was on deaths door had been flashing, as well as the two big (for my pond, not big by koi standards I love this hobby but....) and I just picked the fish that was easiest to catch for a scrape and the slide was crawling with flukes.

    Fluke Solve Plus has them all looking a lot better.


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    The videos are much better than the photos. Can’t get the hang of photographing down a microscope lens.

    Thankfully they are much improved, fingers crossed!!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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  3. #22
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion Alburglar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twhitenosugar View Post
    I feel your (and others) pain.

    I did the water change and always use healthy doses of ST, so don't think it's a chlorine issue...

    ...I managed to get the smallest of blobs (just bigger than a pin head) off one and saw trich. So whacked some PP in there last weekend.

    Sent from my Pixel 8 using Tapatalk
    Just so people know, you cannot use ST with treatments it will neutralise the treatment in the same way that hydrogen peroxide does. It is actually recommended as a cheaper way to stop the effects of PP.
    I was told once you need at least 7 days clear after a normal dose of ST or you'd need to PP first before you treat, just to neutralise the pond.

    I suspect this is usually why people have trouble with endless treatments. I certainly did until I found out.
    Last edited by Alburglar; 28-05-2024 at 10:20 AM.
    2660 Gallons. 4" Bottom Drain and Skimmer. Draco Solum 16 Drum. Anoxic Filtration. Air lift returns.

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  5. #23
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion Alburglar's Avatar
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    ...and between these twats and the seagulls using the local water gardens and my pond, I haven't got much hope of ever eradicating anything!
    At least they look nicer than the gulls.
    Get off the glass, you muppet!
    2660 Gallons. 4" Bottom Drain and Skimmer. Draco Solum 16 Drum. Anoxic Filtration. Air lift returns.

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  7. #24
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion Alburglar's Avatar
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    ...that aside, trich this year required:
    Day one- Light PP( I ran out of PP so couldn't keep it purple for 4 hours).
    Day two- Strong PP required a redose or two to keep purple.
    Large water change by whacking up the trickle in
    Day four- CT
    Day five- CT
    Day six- CT
    Day seven-CT
    2660 Gallons. 4" Bottom Drain and Skimmer. Draco Solum 16 Drum. Anoxic Filtration. Air lift returns.

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  9. #25
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion john1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shropshire_Tom View Post




    The videos are much better than the photos. Can’t get the hang of photographing down a microscope lens.

    Thankfully they are much improved, fingers crossed!!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Glad you got it sorted mate you have had it rough this year,sit back with a beer and enjoy the koi now.
    John

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  11. #26
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion john1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alburglar View Post
    Just so people know, you cannot use ST with treatments it will neutralise the treatment in the same way that hydrogen peroxide does. It is actually recommended as a cheaper way to stop the effects of PP.
    I was told once you need at least 7 days clear after a normal dose of ST or you'd need to PP first before you treat, just to neutralise the pond.

    I suspect this is usually why people have trouble with endless treatments. I certainly did until I found out.
    Agree with you entirely Al,I asked this question a few times till Manky ( Syd ) came to the rescue.
    John

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  13. #27
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion john1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alburglar View Post
    ...and between these twats and the seagulls using the local water gardens and my pond, I haven't got much hope of ever eradicating anything!
    At least they look nicer than the gulls.
    Get off the glass, you muppet!

    God knows what those guys are carrying though they do look nice.
    John

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  15. #28
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion samp09's Avatar
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    When you say it will neutralise treatments, is this a blanket statement or just for PP? I know about PP but not sure on all the other treatments. I have just done the second dose of FMG for whitespot and it looks successful as fish have cleaned right up and lost all the little white spots so doesn't seem like its the case for FMG at least.

  16. #29
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion Alburglar's Avatar
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    There's science behind the PP and yes it neutralises it. How it reacts with other treatments is anecdotal, because we don't know exactly what's in the shop bought treatments, but plenty of, "why didn't my medicine work" threads that mention ST being present. Along with my own experiences.
    I avoid it during ALL treatments for that reason.
    Last edited by Alburglar; 29-05-2024 at 10:07 AM.
    2660 Gallons. 4" Bottom Drain and Skimmer. Draco Solum 16 Drum. Anoxic Filtration. Air lift returns.

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  18. #30
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion Alburglar's Avatar
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    ...If you use Google search you'll find old threads on here about it too, from as far back as 2016.
    2660 Gallons. 4" Bottom Drain and Skimmer. Draco Solum 16 Drum. Anoxic Filtration. Air lift returns.

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  20. #31
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion samp09's Avatar
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    If I PP it is usually a few days after a water change or just before one, I just didn't know it has an issue with other treatments as hadn't seen it mentioned before. I usually over dose by 5-10x the ST amount needed to ensure its all good but have always wondered how long it stays 'active' in the water.

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  22. #32
    Senior Member Rank = Mature Champion smartin's Avatar
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    From experience ST will dilute your treatments guys....

    as a side note i ordered some HP 6% off the internet a few weeks back to clear and re oxygentate the pond after a PP treatment, usually 245ml of Kusuri HP clears the pond with immediate effect, this non Kusuri HP had little effect what so ever when used which was quite annoying, ended up going to local dealer who luckily stocks Kusuri HP and it cleared the pond perfectly.... the company i used has since provided me with a new bottle of HP so will see what happens next time.... upon doing a pototoe test there was very little reaction so i guess the batch must of been old and had nigh on changed back to H2O, serves me right for trying to save a few quid....
    Last edited by smartin; 29-05-2024 at 12:22 PM.
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  24. #33
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    How did your Costia Treatment go @g mac?

    Scraped one of mine on Monday (same one I found 2 costia on just before winter so couldn't treat).

    Immediately found Costia as soon as I switched to x400. Quite a few of them. If nothing else at least I've proved healthy Koi can get through winter with small numbers of Costia.

    Also found a number of rod things (at x100) swimming against the currents on the slide. Never seen them before.

    I dosed pond with ICC and once that was in I quickly poured 90kg of salt down the skimmer line (gets dissolved going over the shower), had just enough to take pond to 0.59%.

    It is my theory (which could be totally wrong), that the faster you up the salt levels the more lethal it is to parasites who are unable to regulate their osmosis fast enough to keep up, and they therefore implode.

    Koi were a little moody for the first few hours, nothing as bad as they are with FMG, and most still ate a small amount that evening. By Tuesday morning they were all active and hungry, even the sickest ones who had been clamped on bottom the last few mornings have been up and about.

    2nd ICC treatment went in today. Will do 5 treatments in total with the 5th one just to use up the last of a bottle of ICC I bought a year ago.
    Last edited by RS2OOO; 29-05-2024 at 03:40 PM.

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  26. #34
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samp09 View Post
    If I PP it is usually a few days after a water change or just before one, I just didn't know it has an issue with other treatments as hadn't seen it mentioned before. I usually over dose by 5-10x the ST amount needed to ensure its all good but have always wondered how long it stays 'active' in the water.
    As far as I'm aware ST will only neutralise PP and CT.

    I'm pretty sure it will not affect powdered fluke treatments or FMG/ Alparex etc.

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  28. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post

    It is my theory (which could be totally wrong), that the faster you up the salt levels the more lethal it is to parasites who are unable to regulate their osmosis fast enough to keep up, and they therefore implode.
    That's correct Steve except a more accurate description is that they dehydrate to death and shrivel like soft fruit left for too long in the bowl.

    What those who permanently salt their ponds in an effort to protect their fish from parasites don't realise is that, if the pond is normally salted to, say 0.3%, any parasite that enters the pond will become acclimatised to that level and will multiply.

    Then, if the salinity is increased to, say, 0.6% in order to combat an outbreak, they will only experience a sudden jump of 0.3% which isn't really a "killing" jump so the treatment is far less effective.

    However, if the pond isn't salted in the first place, suddenly increasing the salinity to 0.6% is, obviously, a 0.6% jump which is difficult for parasites to adjust to so they will quickly dehydrate to death. If the pond is already at 0.3%, then to achieve a 0.6% sudden rise, the salinity would have to be quickly raised to 0.9% which isn't good for the koi metabolism.

    I wrote a short piece for my website about the way salt kills freshwater parasites and, conversely, how marine parasites can be killed by freshwater dips::
    Koi health (mankysanke.co.uk)

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  30. #36
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion Twhitenosugar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alburglar View Post
    Just so people know, you cannot use ST with treatments it will neutralise the treatment in the same way that hydrogen peroxide does. It is actually recommended as a cheaper way to stop the effects of PP.
    I was told once you need at least 7 days clear after a normal dose of ST or you'd need to PP first before you treat, just to neutralise the pond.

    I suspect this is usually why people have trouble with endless treatments. I certainly did until I found out.
    Yeah I had to wait a few days between doing water changes before I did the PP. Which was handy as it gave me a chance to observe the fish before treatment to see if the water change had any effect.... Which unfortunately it didn't.

    I tend to do a 100% PP dose (for the volume of water) then prep a 50% dose to follow up, which I usually add after the first hour after the first dose of PP is used up. And then add. Smaller and smaller doses to avoid overdoing it.

    I used ST to neutralise the PP after 4 hours. I recall mankey Sankey saying that using HP can be harsh on the fish. Plus I already had a big bag of it and no HP.

    Sent from my Pixel 8 using Tapatalk
    13,000L fibreglassed raised pond with window

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  32. #37
    Late to the discussion - thought I’d add my own theory /practice. May get shouted at though!

    For PP, it’s important to maintain continuous exposure for 6-8 hrs - 8 hrs would be ideal for a single treatment, and 6hrs on either consecutive days or one day apart double treatment.

    PP is effective at the lowest concentration detectable by flesh eye - get a McDonald’s soda cup and see the colour of water under natural or cool white light - any tint of pink or even orange, do NOT add more PP. instead, keep testing each 30mins and the moment you see alight brown, add another 1ppm. Repeat this till 6-8hrs passed. If doses are topped up gradually this way and with max air in pond and assume filters all deep cleaned and not much algae - the bugs would be cooked up in a nice gunky soup at end of the session. No need to neutralize with ST. If the brown water bothers you, add a cup of 6% HP at a time till water begins to clear - STOP now, as the HP takes a few minutes to mix through the pond and you don’t want to overdo it to oxidize fish gills any further.

    No need to pay koi tax and buy Kususi branded HP. Just buy the cheapest on eBay “food grade HP 6%”.

    For WC, I almost never add ST for small 10-20% top ups - I just let chlorine gas off. Even for large 50% WC, say between a SV dose for fluke, I top up over 8hrs slowly and let the chlorine gas off. I do test every 2hrs with DPD4 tablets to ensure absolutely no pink tint.

    This is because I want to be ‘battle ready” for the next treatment, and don’t want to wait for 1-2 weeks for ST to expire especially given we all tend to over so ST and don’t tend to believe the power of those fine crystals at small amounts.

    The only time I use ST is when doing a 80-90% WC - say when nitrate hits 40-80, or after I scrubbed pond wall full of algae - I just pump out all the dirty /bad water and refill - and I do add ST for this!

  33. #38
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion samp09's Avatar
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    Regarding the ST and FMG situation, I have slightly overdosed for my pond for the first 2 treatments and have to add the third and final tomorrow. The fish are free of the little white spots now and once I have done the final dose I will scrape after a week or so, so it seems ST has no effect on the FMG as it has been effective pretty quickly.

    Maybe Manke can give an insight to if this is true for any treatments other than PP?

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  35. #39
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manky Sanke View Post
    That's correct Steve except a more accurate description is that they dehydrate to death and shrivel like soft fruit left for too long in the bowl.

    What those who permanently salt their ponds in an effort to protect their fish from parasites don't realise is that, if the pond is normally salted to, say 0.3%, any parasite that enters the pond will become acclimatised to that level and will multiply.

    Then, if the salinity is increased to, say, 0.6% in order to combat an outbreak, they will only experience a sudden jump of 0.3% which isn't really a "killing" jump so the treatment is far less effective.

    However, if the pond isn't salted in the first place, suddenly increasing the salinity to 0.6% is, obviously, a 0.6% jump which is difficult for parasites to adjust to so they will quickly dehydrate to death. If the pond is already at 0.3%, then to achieve a 0.6% sudden rise, the salinity would have to be quickly raised to 0.9% which isn't good for the koi metabolism.

    I wrote a short piece for my website about the way salt kills freshwater parasites and, conversely, how marine parasites can be killed by freshwater dips::
    Koi health (mankysanke.co.uk)
    Brilliant, thanks for the confirmation Syd.

    Just one thing you touched on that I should have pointed out, whilst my generally healthy Koi tolerate a rapid 0-60 quite well (yeah, I take them out in the race car haha), the sudden change of salinity does knock them for an hour or 2 so I suspect if anyone is dealing with very poorly weak Koi, be cautious not to finish them off with sudden osmotic shock.

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  37. #40
    We've had big issues with flukes and costia this year. Had fish for 6 years and this is the 1st time we've lost any. Used Alparex and on the 2nd dose, some fish began 'fitting' after an hour. Took them out, but didn't manage to save them. Seems our KH crashed. It was 7 at the start of treatment on the 1st day and 6 before the 2nd one went in. It dropped rapidly, and luckily I had bicarb available, so I was able to chuck some in within the 1st hour of issues appearing and bring it back to 7, although the dose I put in shouldn't have raised it that high.

    Our pond is 38,000 litres, and I added 500g, which is less than the recommended 20-30g/1000 litres to raise it by 1.

    That was yesterday, and at 7am this morning, KH was 5 again. Now I don't know if the alparex is affecting the readings/chemical reaction of the KH test, but I don't want to take any chances with another crash, so we added 250g bicarb, and 2 hours later it's reading 7 again!

    UVs are still off, and we're not clear on how long to leave them off for this treatment.
    We're wary of changing too much water and the treatment not working, as then we feel that those fish will have died for nothing, so we're trying to hold off on that and not switching the UVs back on for now. Although we'd like to do that as soon as we can. I've read from 4 hrs to 1 week before you should turn the UVs back on, so if anyone knows, I'd appreciate it as I don't want to leave them off any longer than necessary.

 

 
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