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  1. #1
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion samp09's Avatar
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    Body shape changes

    So I recently noticed 2 of my fish seem to have a bit of an odd body shape and I don't know if this is something to worry about or if it will change as they grow and fill out more, or if its only going to get worse. I have a Karashigoi with a slightly bent head but the rest of the body is straight and this fish is male, this only really came apparent as the fish has grown more and its now around 56cm and I can see the bend more obviously, a year or so ago when it was 45cm it wasn't visible.

    The two fish I am referring to in this post are both nisai as of the autumn just past and 2 fish I got from Adam Byer, my Oakley chag and my Shiro Utsuri. Heres the shiro:

    IMG_5342.jpg

    And here is the chag. This picture seems to make it look far worse than it is in person due to the angle of the fish as its swimming and the water etc but you can see the bend, in person I was not 100% sure I was seeing anything at all but after netting it for a closer look I could see it.

    IMG_4482.jpg


    I have noticed this seems to have become more prominent, especially on the wider chag, since the water temp as come down and as a result feeding has dropped right down. Over xmas when we had the milder spell I waited till it got to 10 before feeding them probably got 5 feeds in total every couple of days before it dropped again, and before that I had last fed probably around the 1st of December. Another thing of note with the chag is Oakley the parent koi has a different shape to other koi, I have attached a picture of the beast below and I remember me and Adam talking about the selections when I was picking mine and how out of the bowl I had, mine was very much like a miniature Oakley in shape.

    Screenshot 2023-01-21 at 20.43.32.jpg

    Is it likely that the fish have just got a bit slimmer because of the cold winter period and lack of food? Will they fill out and look normal again come spring/summer once they have got more grub in them or are they likely to end up kinked/bent? They are currently only 19-20 months old so a lot to do on them. The head and spines etc look perfectly straight and they swim straight and normal in person so there's no sign of that being the issue, but as previously mentioned, my karashigoi looked perfectly normal till it got over about 50cm!

    Just to add, I'm about 95% sure the chag is female going on a fair few things, and I think the shiro might be too.



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  3. #2
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    it's a bit hard to say from still pics mate...
    a video would give a better idea as the waters surface can make fish look all kind of odd shapes when in reality they are not...

    but if they do look like the photo's, it looks more like a bulge on one side than kinked to me as the spine looks straight.
    so could a slight bulge be coldwater and swimbladder related, if the fish are otherwise healthy?

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    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion samp09's Avatar
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    Yeah true, it definitely seems like more of a bulge than any kind of bend in the fish, although the curving in on the other side is what seems a bit strange, but then as mentioned it certainly seems more prominent since the feeding has basically stopped for nearly 2 months now. I daren't take the covers off to get any sort of video and lose any more temperature as its already down to 6.8!

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    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    It's difficult to call mate...
    I'd be suspicious of any bulge, as not healthy.
    In a perfect world we'd be able to put them in a hospital pond and call a vet out to do culture's and blood tests.
    But in the real world we generally have to just keep a close eye on them and see how it goes...
    Other than salting the pond if they are all struggling which still isn't ideal, is to heat it and see if it improves...

    Sorry I cant be of more help

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    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion samp09's Avatar
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    The thing is it's not really a bulge as such, just the fact that one side curves in and the other curves out, but the part that bulges out seems to be more of a natural curve of the fish, the curve inwards is what makes it look unusual. The fish seem healthy and happy enough which is why I'm not worried about it being a health issue but more an abnormal body shape. The Shiro kind of reminds me a bit of carp that have that 'double belly' if you know what I mean just from the picture above. I guess we will see with growth this year!

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  10. #6
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samp09 View Post
    The thing is it's not really a bulge as such, just the fact that one side curves in and the other curves out, but the part that bulges out seems to be more of a natural curve of the fish, the curve inwards is what makes it look unusual. The fish seem healthy and happy enough which is why I'm not worried about it being a health issue but more an abnormal body shape. The Shiro kind of reminds me a bit of carp that have that 'double belly' if you know what I mean just from the picture above. I guess we will see with growth this year!
    have you checked the pond to earth for stray voltage with a multimeter?

    the double belly (munnipari) as Naoki would say,
    i think is due to over feeding at lower temperatures.
    mine were getting a bit porky in november at 18C so i dropped the feed levels down.

    i'm just feeding 25g 3 times a day now,
    though some days of high pressure they go off food, as carp do in the wild.
    so they might get just one 25g feed or less that day....
    Last edited by davethefish1; 22-01-2023 at 04:15 PM.

  11. #7
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion samp09's Avatar
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    Never, what setting would I have to have on the multimeter to do this? Yeah I am not feeding at all currently!

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    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samp09 View Post
    Never, what setting would I have to have on the multimeter to do this? Yeah I am not feeding at all currently!
    You're looking for 240v stray voltage
    so need to be mindful if you are holding something connected to earth and there is stray voltage make sure your hands or, anything else aren't in contact with the water...
    or you won't need a multi meter to know there is...

    Set the range to 240v ac to start with use a crocodile clip to clamp the negative lead to an earthing point and dip the positive lead tip only into the pond water.
    If you have pumps running you may get magnetically 'induced' voltage but that should be in low single digits if at all.

    Stray voltage has been known to cause spinal issues in fish.
    Last edited by davethefish1; 22-01-2023 at 10:34 PM.

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    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion samp09's Avatar
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    Interesting, I will have to have a test!

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    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion Twhitenosugar's Avatar
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    Hi sam.

    To me, looking at the photos it seems that is just the natural shape of the koi.

    I have heard that exposure to electricity can cause fish to end up with a kinked spine. But that would only explain the shape of the Chagoi, as the utsuri looks straight, but with bumpy flanks.

    Tbh, I can't see that the Chagoi will improve, especially if you say it's actually got worse as it's grown.

    But the lumps and bumps along the side of the utsuri might just be because it's fairly thin and may smooth out a bit once it bulks up and builds up a bit of a fat layer under the skin?

    Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk
    13,000L fibreglassed raised pond with window

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  19. #11
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion samp09's Avatar
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    yeah the chagoi is the same as the Utsuri, just a bigger and wider fish but otherwise its straight and just seems to have the bumps etc, I think it's just emphasised at the moment due to being thinner with the lack of feeding. As you say, with growth it will hopefully look normal again!

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  21. #12
    Hi Jon, shame to see these two go that way. It's not representative of either line! We have koi from both lines here - ambient in the sales room, and some being kept at mid teens C too - and we're not seeing the body on any of them do what you've seen.There's always risk in koi, but if you have more than one developing lopsided bodies like that, then there might be something else at play. Difficult to say.
    Co-founder and owner of Adam Byer Koi Farm (https://www.byerkoifarm.co.uk/collections/koi-for-sale)

  22. #13
    Senior Member Rank = Rokusai Naoki Atsumi's Avatar
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    This is my experience that it is rather rare for a KOI to remain in perfect shape in growing up. It is normal for KOI to have certain quirks in their swimming posture and body features, which may be influenced by the environment and feeding methods, but are often basically the characteristics of the particular KOI.

    Here is an example of another Japanese KOI, both of which were sold at DAINICHI at the time of TOSAI.
    I am sorry to use other people's KOI as an example, but when it comes to top breeders' KOI, there is always a reason why they are available at a reasonal price.



    Although his SHOWA is still growing well, the reality is that his SHOW results are only up to the regional level and they are unlikely to win any prizes at the All-Japan .
    The interesting thing is that the subtle swimming habits of the little ones are still evident when they grow up.

    In other words, breeders carefully consider what they will look like when they grow up when deciding whether or not to sell at TOSAI.
    Last edited by Naoki Atsumi; 24-01-2023 at 03:58 PM.

  23. #14
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion samp09's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdamByer View Post
    Hi Jon, shame to see these two go that way. It's not representative of either line! We have koi from both lines here - ambient in the sales room, and some being kept at mid teens C too - and we're not seeing the body on any of them do what you've seen.There's always risk in koi, but if you have more than one developing lopsided bodies like that, then there might be something else at play. Difficult to say.
    Thanks for the reply Adam, the bodies are straight in the spine etc, it just seems to be like they have a little indent on one side but the photos definitely seem to make it seem more pronounced than it is. They were fed heavily throughout summer and done some good growing! I will have to try and get some better pictures of them in the pond but am hopefully as they grow it will maybe correct a little, I am hoping as they get more volume in the body it will improve, only time will tell! Looking at pictures from when I selected them you can see it a little there too but both fish looked slim so I figured when they got more body on them they would fill out more. Let's see what the summer brings

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    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion samp09's Avatar
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    I just checked with the multimeter and no reading so that's not the issue. I have just had a look and the chag seems like it might have a slightly bent head which is something that can happen to any koi, typically I managed to have a karashigoi with it and now my chag The Shiro seems fine from what I can see and the body shape variance is very minor to the point that it isn't noticeable unless you really stare at the fish for a while. Just how it goes sometimes!

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  26. #16
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samp09 View Post
    I just checked with the multimeter and no reading so that's not the issue. I have just had a look and the chag seems like it might have a slightly bent head which is something that can happen to any koi, typically I managed to have a karashigoi with it and now my chag The Shiro seems fine from what I can see and the body shape variance is very minor to the point that it isn't noticeable unless you really stare at the fish for a while. Just how it goes sometimes!
    at least you have eliminated stray voltage, as that can be very dangerous

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