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  1. #1
    Senior Member Rank = Rokusai Naoki Atsumi's Avatar
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    Is PP treatment mandatory?

    I'm sure I'm going to be accused of not being a solution, but I'm uncomfortable with the fact that I see too many people easily getting involved with strong chemicals.

    It is true that you may see many breeders using potassium permanganate and other chemicals when they land from mud ponds, but the principle is that we laymen would prefer it if we could do without them.

    However, if we are forced to use them in the previous year, for example, our approach is to review our purchasing plan and annual rearing schedule to avoid using them the following year, and make small improvements.

    Of course, I know that this is more difficult than in Japan due to problems with water temperature and differences in water quality.

    However, this summer has been generally warmer and all the ponds are showing near-ideal results, aren't you?

    I don't think the situation will change now just by messing about from the side, but I don't think progress would be made if everyone continued with the constant practice of frequently scraping off mucus, examining it under a microscope and immediately spraying it with chemicals.



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    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion samp09's Avatar
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    In previous posts you have stated the Japanese don't use chemicals at all and instead fish survive through the heavy feeding period in summer We only use chemicals when fish are suffering, not for the fun of it. Most hobbyists will only scrape when they see signs of issues etc.

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    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai hippo's Avatar
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    The treatment of parasites seems to becoming a bit of a "dark art" . On the one hand were advised as hobbyists to act quickly , once parasites are found , but were increasingly finding that many treatments are becoming inneffective against certain parasites . Many times we end up going through a whole range and combination of treatments - which cant be good for the fish . On top of this were increasingly being told that certain treatments such as PP and Malachite are too harsh . Unfortunately , leaving things alone isn`t an option in many cases . You just have to try your best based on the information you have . As Sam says , nobody wants to be constantly chucking chemicals over their fish .

    I`ve spoken to a few dealers about the subject and they can sometimes be quite cagey about what they use . I might be being paranoid , but I get the feeling they dont tend to use the same "off the shelf" treatments as we do - or at least not in the recommended dose rates .
    Colin

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    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion samp09's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hippo View Post
    The treatment of parasites seems to becoming a bit of a "dark art" . On the one hand were advised as hobbyists to act quickly , once parasites are found , but were increasingly finding that many treatments are becoming inneffective against certain parasites . Many times we end up going through a whole range and combination of treatments - which cant be good for the fish . On top of this were increasingly being told that certain treatments such as PP and Malachite are too harsh . Unfortunately , leaving things alone isn`t an option in many cases . You just have to try your best based on the information you have . As Sam says , nobody wants to be constantly chucking chemicals over their fish .

    I`ve spoken to a few dealers about the subject and they can sometimes be quite cagey about what they use . I might be being paranoid , but I get the feeling they dont tend to use the same "off the shelf" treatments as we do - or at least not in the recommended dose rates .

    Something else I thought about a bit, Dave mentioned that Ricky from koi wholesale says to keep fish either over 18 or under 12 as 12-18 is where the immune system isn't as active whilst parasites and bacteria still are. Whilst we are aware of this, I would expect that parasites would be dealt with and gotten rid of by someone like koi wholesale so this temperature range shouldn't be an issue for them, however, reading between the lines and maybe a bit of overthinking the statement makes me wonder if they struggle with them too, but fish are generally more comfortable above 18 and so easier to get healthy enough for the parasites to not be an issue.
    I know Ajm was getting a fish from somewhere supplied by koi wholesale and it had flukes, not to say they came from koi wholesale, but if the stockist only uses them it would be hard to imagine it came from anywhere else. The dealer didn't sell him the fish as a result. As I said, maybe I am over thinking it.

    The main thing here is that no-one wants to treat the pond with anything they don't need to, but also I know multiple dealers who have confirmed that fish coming from Japan are riddled with parasites and I suppose its the stress of the shipping that probably leads them to cause issues as they won't be at the temperatures where the immune system is active either.

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    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai hippo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samp09 View Post
    Something else I thought about a bit, Dave mentioned that Ricky from koi wholesale says to keep fish either over 18 or under 12 as 12-18 is where the immune system isn't as active whilst parasites and bacteria still are. Whilst we are aware of this, I would expect that parasites would be dealt with and gotten rid of by someone like koi wholesale so this temperature range shouldn't be an issue for them, however, reading between the lines and maybe a bit of overthinking the statement makes me wonder if they struggle with them too, but fish are generally more comfortable above 18 and so easier to get healthy enough for the parasites to not be an issue.
    I know Ajm was getting a fish from somewhere supplied by koi wholesale and it had flukes, not to say they came from koi wholesale, but if the stockist only uses them it would be hard to imagine it came from anywhere else. The dealer didn't sell him the fish as a result. As I said, maybe I am over thinking it
    The main thing here is that no-one wants to treat the pond with anything they don't need to, but also I know multiple dealers who have confirmed that fish coming from Japan are riddled with parasites and I suppose its the stress of the shipping that probably leads them to cause issues as they won't be at the temperatures where the immune system is active either.
    Yeah , Ive heard Ricky mention 18 degrees as the magic number . I always thought 10 to 14 was the tricky area . Not been so bad this year , but most years it can take until June or July to hit 18 in an unheated pond . No wonder we get so many issues .
    Colin

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    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion samp09's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hippo View Post
    Yeah , Ive heard Ricky mention 18 degrees as the magic number . I always thought 10 to 14 was the tricky area . Not been so bad this year , but most years it can take until June or July to hit 18 in an unheated pond . No wonder we get so many issues .
    Last year I remember it was still around 14 in the pond roughly at the beginning of June as it wasn't getting to 20 even! This year was much better, but I found the nights were cold well into summer around 10-12 so even covered at night I would gain 2 degrees in the day but lose 1 in the night!

    It certainly seems like it could be worth using a heater to ramp temps up to 18+ as soon as some warm weather/sun is forecast in Spring to get to that point then using covers hold it and hopefully improve on it but it is a ball ache.

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    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    i think the dodgy 13C-17C temperatures are more of an issue coming out of winter into spring, as the fish are weaker due to the winter 'hibernation/rest' period.
    as lots of japanese hobbiests seem to be always commenting when to resume feeding again, even in late may!

    rather than coming out of summer into autumn where they are strong and full of vigour having been built up with food during summer.
    most japanese i believe still feed them well into autumn (late november) at temperatures they wouldn't feed at in spring as the fish are stronger.

    that said,
    Chris Wall mentioned that holding fish in "no mans land" temperatures (13C-17C) over winter where you can't feed well, but fish are still very active and buring energy.
    could lead to a loss of bulk and volume.
    Last edited by davethefish1; 24-09-2022 at 12:36 PM.

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    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    If all fish were certified parasite free when they left Japan we wouldn't have to use any chemicals, ever.

    Personally I've not once had 100% success rate in clearing parasites with PP at packet dose rate.

    Same with FMG in more recent years. Always End up having to ramp up the dose rate, sometimes significantly.

    Oh, and it's the same with fluke treatments.

    If you have experimented with just leaving parasite infected fish to recover by themselves with no intervention I'd love to hear about it.

    Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Naoki Atsumi View Post
    I'm sure I'm going to be accused of not being a solution, but I'm uncomfortable with the fact that I see too many people easily getting involved with strong chemicals.

    It is true that you may see many breeders using potassium permanganate and other chemicals when they land from mud ponds, but the principle is that we laymen would prefer it if we could do without them.

    However, if we are forced to use them in the previous year, for example, our approach is to review our purchasing plan and annual rearing schedule to avoid using them the following year, and make small improvements.

    Of course, I know that this is more difficult than in Japan due to problems with water temperature and differences in water quality.

    However, this summer has been generally warmer and all the ponds are showing near-ideal results, aren't you?

    I don't think the situation will change now just by messing about from the side, but I don't think progress would be made if everyone continued with the constant practice of frequently scraping off mucus, examining it under a microscope and immediately spraying it with chemicals.
    Not sure what the point of the post is? Are you suggesting we ignore parasites and dont treat for them? (Apparently like the Japenese) In the UK we dont scrape or treat for fun, we scrape and treat because theres a problem!
    Fibreglassed/5000 gals/4.5 m Tunnel/Spindrifter/Twin drums/Bio chambers/Beads/Showers/Remora ASHP

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    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion samp09's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spongebob View Post
    Not sure what the point of the post is? Are you suggesting we ignore parasites and dont treat for them? (Apparently like the Japenese) In the UK we dont scrape or treat for fun, we scrape and treat because theres a problem!

    Previously Naoki said they never use chemicals or treat fish at all, they are simply fed heavily in summer which makes them strong enough to rid themselves of parasites or live with them, but now breeders apparently use PP, one of the harshest chemicals we can expose them to for treatments as well as others.

    I do wonder how much gets lost in translation, but like how the 'many breeders' will now use chemicals to treat fish from the mud ponds, we have to do the same as well as the dealers here because fish arrive from Japan riddled with parasites. As I have previously mentioned, I know for a fact that Queni koi and my local dealer both use Alparex maybe multiple times when fish arrive from Japan as they are always riddled with parasites.

    What Naoki doesn't seem to understand is that we use these treatments often as a last resort because fish have become ulcerated or damaged from the constant rubbing or jumping. No one is scraping their fish every week to find a reason to nuke the pond with chemicals. I would imagine Japanese hobbyists and hobbyists all over the world do the same, I doubt they see a fish with an ulcer or raised scales and think, well nature will take its course, if it dies it dies, I am sure they have proceedures in place to heal the fish and nurse them back to full health!

    I have fed heavily all summer like Naoki claims is the way to get fish through winter with no issues, yet my fish have been flicking and rubbing since the temperature has dropped to around 20, so it proves this theory is nonsense in my opinion. My fish have a nice healthy mucus coating as when I scraped this week I have never found it easier to get a mucus sample from any of my fish, yet they are flicking and flashing so parasites are irritating them!

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    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    i've lost count of the Japanese hobbiests on youtube that hoof 150kgs of salt direct in the pond without dissolving,
    or do extremely high concentration PP baths on koi....

    in a small enclosed environment like a pond, parasites multiply exponentially.
    and can't be ignored, even extremely strong and healthy fish would be killed without treatment.
    Last edited by davethefish1; 25-09-2022 at 07:56 PM.

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  23. #12
    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai hippo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samp09 View Post

    I have fed heavily all summer like Naoki claims is the way to get fish through winter with no issues, yet my fish have been flicking and rubbing since the temperature has dropped to around 20, so it proves this theory is nonsense in my opinion. My fish have a nice healthy mucus coating as when I scraped this week I have never found it easier to get a mucus sample from any of my fish, yet they are flicking and flashing so parasites are irritating them!
    Did you find anything on the scrapes , Sam ? Mine have been showing similar behaviour , but I`m not finding anything .
    Colin

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  24. #13
    In fairness often replies are straight away "PP will sort it out" especially on Facebook groups I've seen.

    No idea how, but touch wood the only treatment I've used has been blanket weed resolve once, clay (no idea if it's ever done anything) & I've started dosing virkon aquatic, I had an issue with a koi with a knock on its tail that looked like it was potentially going to ulcer, water change, double dose, water change & single dose, seemed to sort it.
    & I've tested my water twice in last year, due to the koi with the knock.

    The pond & filter setup is ridiculous compared to others, bodged up pumped 4bay filter & that's it.
    Still wonder how many issues of others are due to the fish being in near perfect water not allowing them to build up any anti-viral/bodies & anything minor gets blown out of proportion.

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  26. #14
    Senior Member Rank = Rokusai Naoki Atsumi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samp09 View Post
    I have fed heavily all summer like Naoki claims is the way to get fish through winter with no issues, yet my fish have been flicking and rubbing since the temperature has dropped to around 20, so it proves this theory is nonsense in my opinion. My fish have a nice healthy mucus coating as when I scraped this week I have never found it easier to get a mucus sample from any of my fish, yet they are flicking and flashing so parasites are irritating them!
    Does a low water temperature really cause a mass outbreak of protozoa worms like Chilodonella and Ichthyobodiasis? You also described parasites there, but it's not itching KOIs, by the anchor worm or the argulus? Because as you guys know, those are different things to deal with.

    I've had a few years of experience in the UK, but at least in Japan and in both countries, it's hard for me to imagine such a problem occurring just because of a drop in water temperature, once the KOI's appetite and condition is at its peak, unless the pond is properly disinfected before the feeding period (e.g. salt over several days, if not PP) and new KOI's are added or taken in and out frequently from there
    Well, unless the water quality has been contaminated without taking into account the digestion conditions, or if the water has been mixed with water from some natural river

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    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion samp09's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hippo View Post
    Did you find anything on the scrapes , Sam ? Mine have been showing similar behaviour , but I`m not finding anything .

    Nothing but I am convinced its gill flukes. I think in spring I found 2 trich and a possible fluke out of 5 scrapes on 5 fish and treated then so I know they are not infested with anything heavily, but the fact the odd one holds its mouth open like its trying to push water through its gills makes me think its gill flukes.

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    Senior Member Rank = Rokusai Naoki Atsumi's Avatar
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    I mentioned that regular spraying with pigments was the Japanese way until the 80s, but here are some people who are using modern and common methods to increase the immunity of KOI themselves, using as little fungicides as possible.

    It's frustrating that I can't explain it in my own pond, but as I was once a fundamentalist, people who are more fundamentalist than I am are all posting updates on how they are doing it.
    We have put it off until after some of the events there, but we see late September and October as the most important time of year for us, as much or more so than midsummer, as it determines the outcome of the finishing touches to the KOI.

    Just as you are aware of and expect the breeders' mud ponds to be harvested, many of you are also looking forward to the harvest in your own individual ponds at the same time. As the temperature begins to drop, the Koi that have been tamed in midsummer without any new Koi or nets will maintain their appetite and digestive power, even as the water temperature drops, and will show a greater appetite for food than they did in midsummer, when they were tired of eating, and will even show a greater appetite for food than they did in midsummer. This allows them to develop a thicker back and a stouter waist, which was not seen in mid-summer, and to achieve the ultimate goal of a fleshy tail pipe.

    In the words of the contributor, now then, we're on the final turn, they began to sprint at full speed right now.
    Those with some experience apply the finishing techniques of breeders to take advantage of the difference in water temperature that has started to drop, to increase mucus production and improve immunity, while increasing colour and gloss.
    This is exactly what feeding techniques are all about, and it is an area where everyone is engaged in friendly competition.


    ※Some skin irritation in an ageing HISHOWA (possibly a disappearing HIBAN?) I'm sure you'd all be quick to take it up to the bowl to check and treat it, but at this time of year and in this condition, I'd dare to choose to leave it alone. Especially if you are a fundamentalist mud pond believer
    Last edited by Naoki Atsumi; 07-10-2022 at 11:26 PM.

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    Senior Member Rank = Rokusai Naoki Atsumi's Avatar
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    Each of these three people has a smaller budget for KOI, and they do not have as many high-end KOI as the previous, but they all have one thing in common: the KOI are more active during this period when the water temperature begins to drop than in summer.


    I failed to do my twice-yearly disinfection after the feeding season last year because the water temperature dropped too low, but this year I'm going to do it while they're still healthy with a bit of extra energy.


    My pond is 2 tons of water, and the KOI has a more brilliant color, but the pond water is sparkling as well, isn't it? (This is what happens in a virtuous cycle of recycling when the KOI itself becomes active, covered with aerobic bacteria.)


    October! The temperature and water temperature are gradually dropping and this season's feeding will end around the end of October. They'll be in hibernation until next spring!

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    Moderator Rank = Supreme Champion Feline's Avatar
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    I’m not I sure what the point is about using PP here. In fact, few of us in the UK reach for PP first, and we generally have a diagnosis from scrapes before deciding which would be the most appropriate treatment. In many ways the UK approach to disease and treatment is superior to what goes on in Japan. Naoki could maybe learn something here rather than lecturing

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  34. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Naoki Atsumi View Post

    October! The temperature and water temperature are gradually dropping and this season's feeding will end around the end of October. They'll be in hibernation until next spring!

    Naoki I don't wish to highjack a thread where you are passing on your theory about potassium permanganate but please note that koi do not hibernate.

    It's a widespread myth that carp hibernate in winter in lakes or in unheated ponds when the water becomes too cold for their normal behaviour. They don't, they just retreat to the bottom of their environment where it's slightly warmer. Their metabolism slows right down and they don't move very much in order to conserve energy. However, they must still use some energy in order to maintain the body functions necessary to stay alive. For example, the heart, gills and osmoregulation must never stop working and these functions use energy. In the carp natural environment, as their stored energy in the form of ATP (Adenosine TriPhosphate) depletes, they will occasionally feel the need to go searching for food in order to top it up again. No artificially imposed limits by koi keepers will stop fish in natural lakes from eating very small amounts when they need to.

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  36. #20
    Senior Member Rank = Rokusai Naoki Atsumi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feline View Post
    I’m not I sure what the point is about using PP here. In fact, few of us in the UK reach for PP first, and we generally have a diagnosis from scrapes before deciding which would be the most appropriate treatment. In many ways the UK approach to disease and treatment is superior to what goes on in Japan. Naoki could maybe learn something here rather than lecturing
    >British attitudes to disease and treatment are in many ways superior to those in Japan.
    >Let's accept that as a given.

    But for many of us, the priority is more about how we can improve our immune system and how we can reduce the chance of being treated with KOI's inherent resistance.
    So once the KOI have been disinfected before the feeding season, it is generally as if professional breeders have released them into a muddy pond and are helping them to heal themselves with as little intervention as possible.

    The most basic rule is not to join and mix new KOI until the harvest.
    They are not netted or scooped to reduce their vigilance so as not to disturb their appetite as much as possible.
    We try to bring out the wild instincts of the KOI itself.

    We let things work themselves out collectively through the cycle system of pond filtration and their own migratory power.

 

 
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