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Thread: DIY Air Curtain

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    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smartin View Post
    Hi Dave,

    nice nice one mate
    cheers Steve

  2. #22
    I have seen air curtains used in tanks, interested to understand the purpose in a pond.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DiabloDave View Post
    I have seen air curtains used in tanks, interested to understand the purpose in a pond.
    Same as any aeration i think, to increase oxygenation/water circulation.
    But without the centre of the pond being obscured with bottom drain aeration.

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    Senior Member Rank = Jussai Tom Koi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davethefish1 View Post
    Same as any aeration i think, to increase oxygenation/water circulation.
    But without the centre of the pond being obscured with bottom drain aeration.
    I've tried to find the Rasta Koi Video in which he shows his air curtain and talks about the possible effects the aerated drain's have on the larger fishes swim bladder, Mike Snaden has been looking into the issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Koi View Post
    I've tried to find the Rasta Koi Video in which he shows his air curtain and talks about the possible effects the aerated drain's have on the larger fishes swim bladder, Mike Snaden has been looking into the issue.
    Its been known for a while in japan deep aeration can cause gas/air supersaturation, and 'sinking disease' in koi.

    its often called oxygen super saturation but thats not very accurate as air is made up mostly of nitrogen.
    Pumps that draw air in the suction side can also super saturate by dissolving air into water.

    But its mostly accepted that ponds under 5ft deep are not at risk of it as much as 8ft deep ponds.
    But how deep does the water need to be to dissolve air/gas into it pumped under pressure by an air pump?

    The dissolved gasses are thought to pass into the koi and then revert back to gases causing problems.
    Last edited by davethefish1; 17-09-2022 at 11:19 AM.

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    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    here's a copy and paste from a post Mike Snaden made about it a while ago...

    I know some will think I am nuts, but I have seen this issue, and the subsequent stages numerous times over the years, and there have been consistent common factors in all the cases, hence what I am about to write. The lunking itself, can be parasitic, but given the air-on / air-off scenario, I think the following applies...

    The ponds where these issues generally take place, are 6ft deep, or deeper. Sometimes as little as 5ft 5". Never seen this problem with a pond of 5ft or less.
    Assuming that the pond is deep, it only seems to happen if the pond is heavily aerated. Deep ponds with no aeration seem to have no problems.

    It seems that the problem is caused by too much oxygen in the pond, and deep aeration, with the associated mixing of the water, meaning that the Koi can't get away from these overly high levels of O2. The onset of this in the long term, seems to be swim bladder issues, or what the Japanese simply refer to as 'Sinking disease'. Early signs of this can be the lunking, which after time progresses to the fish lunking, and then swimming around the pond at speed. Beyond this, they then start to sit on the bottom a lot, and only come up for food, involving a labored 'head-up' manner of feeding, and then swimming around with the pectoral fins either out wide, or flapping them excessively.

    As far as O2 in the pond goes, of course we need as much as possible. But, once you get near saturation point, adding more air is a pointless exercise. It seems to me that if you get close to saturation point, in some circumstances, the level can go beyond saturation from time to time without you knowing. This can be because of changes in atmospheric pressure, pH, temperature, etc... One of the problems we face, is that we assume we need a minimum of say 8mg/l of O2 in the pond. In reality this figure has little meaning. If the water is say 15c, then this level is actually too low. If the water is 30c, you will never achieve this level. As such, it is better to look at O2 as a % of saturation. Because of these issues, I have spent of lot of time playing around with O2 levels over the last 12 months. I bought a meter that will read as mg/l, or percentage. Naturally, I use the percentage setting. This machine also has automatic atmospheric pressure compensation, and auto temperature compensation. In the case of our 4400 gallon pond (5ft 3" deep) I found that even maxing out the O2 at say 94% (couldn't get above this figure, no matter what!) the Koi seemed fine. However, in the case of our 8000 gallon pond, the same percentage caused one or two of the fish to 'lunk'. Reducing this level to 85 ~ 90% stopped the lunking.

    Of course, maximising the O2 levels is good for maximising a Kois appetite, and growth. This is also one of the reasons I try to grow Koi in lower temps (up to 24c). You see, in Japan, fry ponds are shallow. This allows the water to get hotter, which in turn makes the fry grow faster. It is not uncommon for these ponds to run a little over 30c. This is fine, as small fry can survive the lower O2 levels, and maintain a good appetite, and hence their metabolism and growth is flying! But, older Koi are very much at risk of not surviving hotter temps, and the lower O2 saturation levels that they sustain. Older Koi have a great appetite at up to say 26c. Once you start getting over this, the Koi have difficulty in obtaining enough oxygen. Enough to survive, yes, but not enough to survive and eat well! As such, Koi grown in water that is too hot, have a very high metabolism for growth, but not enough energy to eat, so become long and skinny. The colour is also very easily ruined in hotter temps, and that is the reason I only heat to a max of 24c.

    A few years ago, breeders in Japan started playing with Oxygen injection in order to be able to raise Koi faster, in warmer water. This was moreso the case with Tosai. It took them a few years to realise that this was causing a lot of gill issues with the Koi, and I don't know anyone who still does it. One of the issues with water that is oversaturated, is that the heads of the Koi can become very thick with mucous, to the point where it looks like a layer of skin, which is peeling off. It can also cause the skin on the head to blister a little. Such cases are usually occurring in ponds with more than 6ft of depth, and heavily aerated bottom drains. Pressurised pump returns dont help matters either. In such cases, I have recommended that people cut down the aeration, and in every case I have known, the mucous on the head has cleared. It seems that the mucous is really a very early stage of gas bubble disease.

    If you want to avoid issues with swim bladders, and the early stages manifested by 'lunking', then the best advice I can give, is...

    Don't build a pond too deep. 5ft is fine. If deeper, avoid too much bottom drain aeration. If a pond is deeper, be careful not to have pressurised returns. Another issue, seems to be in the form of pumps that draw in very fine air bubbles from aerated filters, and then smash this air within the impeller, and hence cause the same saturation issues. If this is the case, try to return the water over a weir into the pond. Although a weir may cause high O2 concentrations, it also allows excess O2 to be released easily, so stops over saturation.

    Of course, the above is slightly more complicated, if you start looking at 'total gases'. Best keep it simple by focusing on O2 alone though.

    All the best,

    Mike

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  12. #27
    Senior Member Rank = Jussai Tom Koi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davethefish1 View Post
    here's a copy and paste from a post Mike Snaden made about it a while ago...

    I know some will think I am nuts, but I have seen this issue, and the subsequent stages numerous times over the years, and there have been consistent common factors in all the cases, hence what I am about to write. The lunking itself, can be parasitic, but given the air-on / air-off scenario, I think the following applies...

    The ponds where these issues generally take place, are 6ft deep, or deeper. Sometimes as little as 5ft 5". Never seen this problem with a pond of 5ft or less.
    Assuming that the pond is deep, it only seems to happen if the pond is heavily aerated. Deep ponds with no aeration seem to have no problems.

    It seems that the problem is caused by too much oxygen in the pond, and deep aeration, with the associated mixing of the water, meaning that the Koi can't get away from these overly high levels of O2. The onset of this in the long term, seems to be swim bladder issues, or what the Japanese simply refer to as 'Sinking disease'. Early signs of this can be the lunking, which after time progresses to the fish lunking, and then swimming around the pond at speed. Beyond this, they then start to sit on the bottom a lot, and only come up for food, involving a labored 'head-up' manner of feeding, and then swimming around with the pectoral fins either out wide, or flapping them excessively.

    As far as O2 in the pond goes, of course we need as much as possible. But, once you get near saturation point, adding more air is a pointless exercise. It seems to me that if you get close to saturation point, in some circumstances, the level can go beyond saturation from time to time without you knowing. This can be because of changes in atmospheric pressure, pH, temperature, etc... One of the problems we face, is that we assume we need a minimum of say 8mg/l of O2 in the pond. In reality this figure has little meaning. If the water is say 15c, then this level is actually too low. If the water is 30c, you will never achieve this level. As such, it is better to look at O2 as a % of saturation. Because of these issues, I have spent of lot of time playing around with O2 levels over the last 12 months. I bought a meter that will read as mg/l, or percentage. Naturally, I use the percentage setting. This machine also has automatic atmospheric pressure compensation, and auto temperature compensation. In the case of our 4400 gallon pond (5ft 3" deep) I found that even maxing out the O2 at say 94% (couldn't get above this figure, no matter what!) the Koi seemed fine. However, in the case of our 8000 gallon pond, the same percentage caused one or two of the fish to 'lunk'. Reducing this level to 85 ~ 90% stopped the lunking.

    Of course, maximising the O2 levels is good for maximising a Kois appetite, and growth. This is also one of the reasons I try to grow Koi in lower temps (up to 24c). You see, in Japan, fry ponds are shallow. This allows the water to get hotter, which in turn makes the fry grow faster. It is not uncommon for these ponds to run a little over 30c. This is fine, as small fry can survive the lower O2 levels, and maintain a good appetite, and hence their metabolism and growth is flying! But, older Koi are very much at risk of not surviving hotter temps, and the lower O2 saturation levels that they sustain. Older Koi have a great appetite at up to say 26c. Once you start getting over this, the Koi have difficulty in obtaining enough oxygen. Enough to survive, yes, but not enough to survive and eat well! As such, Koi grown in water that is too hot, have a very high metabolism for growth, but not enough energy to eat, so become long and skinny. The colour is also very easily ruined in hotter temps, and that is the reason I only heat to a max of 24c.

    A few years ago, breeders in Japan started playing with Oxygen injection in order to be able to raise Koi faster, in warmer water. This was moreso the case with Tosai. It took them a few years to realise that this was causing a lot of gill issues with the Koi, and I don't know anyone who still does it. One of the issues with water that is oversaturated, is that the heads of the Koi can become very thick with mucous, to the point where it looks like a layer of skin, which is peeling off. It can also cause the skin on the head to blister a little. Such cases are usually occurring in ponds with more than 6ft of depth, and heavily aerated bottom drains. Pressurised pump returns dont help matters either. In such cases, I have recommended that people cut down the aeration, and in every case I have known, the mucous on the head has cleared. It seems that the mucous is really a very early stage of gas bubble disease.

    If you want to avoid issues with swim bladders, and the early stages manifested by 'lunking', then the best advice I can give, is...

    Don't build a pond too deep. 5ft is fine. If deeper, avoid too much bottom drain aeration. If a pond is deeper, be careful not to have pressurised returns. Another issue, seems to be in the form of pumps that draw in very fine air bubbles from aerated filters, and then smash this air within the impeller, and hence cause the same saturation issues. If this is the case, try to return the water over a weir into the pond. Although a weir may cause high O2 concentrations, it also allows excess O2 to be released easily, so stops over saturation.

    Of course, the above is slightly more complicated, if you start looking at 'total gases'. Best keep it simple by focusing on O2 alone though.

    All the best,

    Mike

    My pond depth is around 168cm's/66.5 " which doesn't seem to bad.?

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  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Koi View Post
    My pond depth is around 168cm's/66.5 " which doesn't seem to bad.?
    five and a half foot is about average, pretty similar to mine...
    but mine having a high level of gassing off in the shower i thought it couldn't hurt to have a curtain rather than bottom drain aeration...
    especially when the water is cooler autumn to spring and holds a lot more gas in solution.

    plus curtains look prettier

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  16. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by davethefish1 View Post
    five and a half foot is about average, pretty similar to mine...
    but mine having a high level of gassing off in the shower i thought it couldn't hurt to have a curtain rather than bottom drain aeration...
    especially when the water is cooler autumn to spring and holds a lot more gas in solution.

    plus curtains look prettier
    I've a 1500 x 4 tier shower on mine, I need to raise it a bit more above the water level, bit of a flaff to do so though.

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    interesting read Dave, makes sense.... at 5" 5 mine is probably bordering problematic and at times i do see some smaller fish darting about but always difficult to be 100% sure why, food for thought though for sure..... never turned my BD down in the colder months maybe i should after readung this...
    2200 gallons,infinity window,BD
    Evolve 4k combi,amalgam UV
    2x20k pondxpert, Skimmer,
    shower,ASHP

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  20. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by smartin View Post
    interesting read Dave, makes sense.... at 5" 5 mine is probably bordering problematic and at times i do see some smaller fish darting about but always difficult to be 100% sure why, food for thought though for sure..... never turned my BD down in the colder months maybe i should after readung this...
    My Karashigoi is poking his head out of the water this morning for some reason, was doing it every few seconds, I've turned the aerated drain off now l've only been running the one lately.

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  22. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by smartin View Post
    interesting read Dave, makes sense.... at 5" 5 mine is probably bordering problematic and at times i do see some smaller fish darting about but always difficult to be 100% sure why, food for thought though for sure..... never turned my BD down in the colder months maybe i should after readung this...
    yeah not many have touched on the subject, apart from mike and i think duncan.

    turning down would be fine i think, i wouldn't leave my pond without any aeration, especially under covers as it adds fresh oxygen.
    but oxygen demand is a lot less in cooler water, the fish need less, and the water holds more....

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  24. #33
    I hardly ever have my spindrifter air on unless i have PP in the pond, when i did one of my kohaku used to lunk every 10 min or so, when we had the 40c cpl of days i had it running for extra air and she started doing it again. All i have running now is a 60lpm in the moving bed that ive teed off of to put a 50mm air stone just below the skimmer that runs just enough air through it to keep the food from being taken in to the drum and the shower.

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  26. #34
    Senior Member Rank = Hassai big h's Avatar
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    Ive just made an air curtain in 5 mins thanks to your video and links.Thankyou Its brilliant.I think my bottom drain resonates,and the lower i turn my air on it,the friendlier and more calm the fish are.This is a better alternative.Appreciate it .Cheers

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    Quote Originally Posted by big h View Post
    Ive just made an air curtain in 5 mins thanks to your video and links.Thankyou Its brilliant.I think my bottom drain resonates,and the lower i turn my air on it,the friendlier and more calm the fish are.This is a better alternative.Appreciate it .Cheers
    no problem mate,
    they work out a fair bit cheaper than the shop bought ones, and look no different

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  30. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by big h View Post
    Ive just made an air curtain in 5 mins thanks to your video and links.Thankyou Its brilliant.I think my bottom drain resonates,and the lower i turn my air on it,the friendlier and more calm the fish are.This is a better alternative.Appreciate it .Cheers
    Where did you get your tubing big h,and what size?
    Been looking at Aliexpress in China.
    John

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  32. #37
    Senior Member Rank = Hassai big h's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john1 View Post
    Where did you get your tubing big h,and what size?
    Been looking at Aliexpress in China.
    Amazon its 25mm external 16mm internal %m for £30 i could have messed about getting it cheaper but Amazon are pretty good.Its a lot cheaper if you buy 15m
    MGP (Inner 16 mm/Outer 25 mm) Ventilation Hose HI Air Hose Aerator Oxygen Hose Koi Pond Air Stone for Oxygen Enrichment in Garden Pond (5


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  34. #38
    Senior Member Rank = Jussai Tom Koi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big h View Post
    Amazon its 25mm external 16mm internal %m for £30 i could have messed about getting it cheaper but Amazon are pretty good.Its a lot cheaper if you buy 15m
    MGP (Inner 16 mm/Outer 25 mm) Ventilation Hose HI Air Hose Aerator Oxygen Hose Koi Pond Air Stone for Oxygen Enrichment in Garden Pond (5
    Hi Big H, have you got a photo of your curtain and a link to what you bought to make it, I need one around 180cm's long, to sit on top end of pond along side of skimmer without it interfering with skimmer if that makes sense.
    Cheers.

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  36. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Koi View Post
    Hi Big H, have you got a photo of your curtain and a link to what you bought to make it, I need one around 180cm's long, to sit on top end of pond along side of skimmer without it interfering with skimmer if that makes sense.
    Cheers.
    I cant take credit for what Dave has done.All his links are on the first post of this thread.Cheers

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  38. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by big h View Post
    Amazon its 25mm external 16mm internal %m for £30 i could have messed about getting it cheaper but Amazon are pretty good.Its a lot cheaper if you buy 15m
    MGP (Inner 16 mm/Outer 25 mm) Ventilation Hose HI Air Hose Aerator Oxygen Hose Koi Pond Air Stone for Oxygen Enrichment in Garden Pond (5
    good find that mate,
    i've been looking for another stockist as Queni sold out real quick

    big H's link for you john
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B086V2H5...v_ov_lig_dp_it

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