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  1. #1
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    Saki Hikari Summer Feeding Strategy

    I've had my delivery today of 15kg of saki hikari balance and 15kg saki hikari growth from coastal koi.
    both bags have really long expiration dates on them, to november 2023.
    and were 151.95 for the balance and 170.95 for the growth delivered.


    i plan on feeding balance 100% going forward into summer as my pond temp is stable and above 18C
    (currently slowly blending it in with the japan mix i'm currently feeding to let their gut bacteria adjust to the new food.)
    until about june when the pond temperature is stable and above 20C when i'll start blending growth with the balance up to about 75%.
    then sometime in august i'll start blending in saki hikari colour food for a week to get it up to 100% colour food then feed it for a couple of weeks or so,
    until the colours have come up enough, thenblend it back out again over a week.

    i did seriously think about using sinking saki hikari, it's not really more expensive than floating per kg, it just comes in bigger 20kg bags...
    and predicted growth rates are better with sinking food, as they can eat it more quickly, and there is less feeding competition.

    but... a big part of the hobby for me is enjoying watching my fish feed, i also like being able to see how much is being eaten easily,
    and i had a couple of fish that wouldn't eat from the surface, when i was feeding some sinking food.
    and as a consequence didn't see them that much as they tended to hang around the bottom of the pond.

    since only feeding floating food they were very skittish at first, but have become more accustomed to feeding off the top.
    and i also see them swimming around a lot more so they don't miss out when the food goes in

    i've put 5kgs of balance in an airtight bucket to see me over the next month or so,
    and to keep the rest of the bag (that comes sealed in a plastic bag inside) fresh,
    i bought some 600mm x 800mm vacuum storage bags.
    that will remove as much excess air and oxygen as possible, to help stop the food from oxidising and seal it in keeping it fresher.

    https://www.coastal-koi.com/shopping.php?class_id=171

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/...0?ie=UTF8&th=1











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  3. #2
    Wow we really do as koi keeper over think things. Sorry but they are Carp.... not Arabian horse worth millions

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  5. #3
    If you had dogs or cats do you vacuum pack there food

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  7. #4
    The world's gone mad don't throw bread to the ducks

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  9. #5
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by colincolin View Post
    Wow we really do as koi keeper over think things. Sorry but they are Carp.... not Arabian horse worth millions
    if it were an arabian horse worth millions it would have food, vitamins, and supplements, worth tens of thousands... not 150...

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  11. #6
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by colincolin View Post
    If you had dogs or cats do you vacuum pack there food
    it's already a thing...

    https://www.vacmasterfresh.com/fresh...h-vacuum-seal/

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  13. #7
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by colincolin View Post
    The world's gone mad don't throw bread to the ducks
    the world becomes more educated...
    filling a duck up with bread can cause them to become malnourished...
    was that general knowledge 30 years ago...no?

    should we still keep doing it now, knowing its bad for them....?
    or just feed them seeds, peas, sweetcorn, rice or oats instead...

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    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion samp09's Avatar
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    I am thinking of a similar strategy to you Dave, mine will be:

    Saki Hikari colour over 18

    Growth over 22 but fed 60-70% growth to colour 40-30 .

    I want to only use the food in the ideal conditions as seems wasteful using it before. I may get some balance to see me through winter/spring instead of the aqua source but we shall see, need to get on the SH first!!

    Colin I like to think of it like any other hobby, if you put 110% in everything you'll get 110% out of your hobby, if you want to put 50% in that's fine and there's nothing wrong with it either. When I go fishing I try to add every % up I can to try and make the difference between catching and not, and by stacking the odds in my favour best I can it generally means I am closer to achieving my goal.
    With the pond, that is growing the fish as big as possible in the summer months whilst retaining the quality of the fish I have paid for. Keeping bags of food as fresh as possible, working out a feeding strategy etc is just adding them every % to try and get your goal. Sure, it don't always work out, but least you know you're doing your best to make it happen!

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  17. #9
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samp09 View Post
    I am thinking of a similar strategy to you Dave, mine will be:

    Saki Hikari colour over 18

    Growth over 22 but fed 60-70% growth to colour 40-30 .

    I want to only use the food in the ideal conditions as seems wasteful using it before. I may get some balance to see me through winter/spring instead of the aqua source but we shall see, need to get on the SH first!!
    how long are you looking to feed the colour for?

    i've only fed a few handfuls of the saki balance mixed with my current japan mix feed...but they seem to have no trouble eating it...

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    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion samp09's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davethefish1 View Post
    how long are you looking to feed the colour for?

    i've only fed a few handfuls of the saki balance mixed with my current japan mix feed...but they seem to have no trouble eating it...
    I'm really looking forward to starting on the SH, hopefully with the warm weather forecast I can start adding it in to the mix next week. I plan to feed the colour all summer with the growth, thats how Ricky does it at koi wholesale to get the best out of his fish and I have 4 Tosai and 2 Nisai with 3 Sansai so mainly young koi with plenty to do development wise still. What about you?

    I was thinking of some JPD shogun for autumn to help with the shiroji but as its Coppens made I am a bit dubious now.

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    Senior Member Rank = Rokusai Naoki Atsumi's Avatar
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    This year, we hope to see some of the UK hobbyists practising feeding with an eye to increasing body width, back rise and tail tube flesh insertion.
    In the past, there were none outside Japan, but we are gradually able to see people practising these techniques in Vietnam, South Africa and elsewhere.
    It would be desirable if the maturation of behaviour such as constantly searching for food could be controlled during the feeding period as a hint to realising these goals.
    I have put the BKKS Grand Champion from a few years ago in between to make it easier to see too much difference in physique but after a while I will revert back to the lower display as before.

    koi feeding skills
    Last edited by Naoki Atsumi; 05-05-2022 at 01:51 AM.

  22. #12
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samp09 View Post
    I'm really looking forward to starting on the SH, hopefully with the warm weather forecast I can start adding it in to the mix next week. I plan to feed the colour all summer with the growth, thats how Ricky does it at koi wholesale to get the best out of his fish and I have 4 Tosai and 2 Nisai with 3 Sansai so mainly young koi with plenty to do development wise still. What about you?

    I was thinking of some JPD shogun for autumn to help with the shiroji but as its Coppens made I am a bit dubious now.
    at the moment i'm thinking of doing colour the way a lot of japanese and dutch keepers and dealers seem to do, plus my 先生 andy moo
    up to 1 month of colour food in peak season of august, fade in one week, 2-3 weeks at 100%, when the fish you are looking to get the most out of, is about 90% intesity, fade out one week.
    the shiroji will yellow, but the beni and colours will be intense, then when back on lower protein food for september to november the shiroji should clear up and become white and pure again.
    i have a 50/50 split in nisai and yonsai, but the yonsai will take most of the food.
    i've not seen rickys take on colour feeding have you got a link? or is it just in the koi magazine?


  23. #13
    Senior Member Rank = Jussai Spongebob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naoki Atsumi View Post
    This year, we hope to see some of the UK hobbyists practising feeding with an eye to increasing body width, back rise and tail tube flesh insertion.
    In the past, there were none outside Japan, but we are gradually able to see people practising these techniques in Vietnam, South Africa and elsewhere.
    It would be desirable if the maturation of behaviour such as constantly searching for food could be controlled during the feeding period as a hint to realising these goals.
    I have put the BKKS Grand Champion from a few years ago in between to make it easier to see too much difference in physique but after a while I will revert back to the lower display as before.

    koi feeding skills
    How do you know what the UK hobbyist has been practicing?
    Fibreglassed/5000 gals/4.5 m Tunnel/Spindrifter/Twin drums/Bio chambers/Beads/Showers/Remora ASHP

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  25. #14
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion samp09's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davethefish1 View Post
    at the moment i'm thinking of doing colour the way a lot of japanese and dutch keepers and dealers seem to do, plus my 先生 andy moo
    up to 1 month of colour food in peak season of august, fade in one week, 2-3 weeks at 100%, when the fish you are looking to get the most out of, is about 90% intesity, fade out one week.
    the shiroji will yellow, but the beni and colours will be intense, then when back on lower protein food for september to november the shiroji should clear up and become white and pure again.
    i have a 50/50 split in nisai and yonsai, but the yonsai will take most of the food.
    i've not seen rickys take on colour feeding have you got a link? or is it just in the koi magazine?

    I think it was on his video about the Isa Showa Tosai he had grown to Nisai, but I also might be wrong as have watched a fair few of his videos. So it may be in this one (Isa harvest): https://youtu.be/z0QTskMy0OE its about 36 minutes long. Its got some stunning showa in but a long watch if wrong! Or it might be this one which is 11 minutes and someone mentions SH in the comments: https://youtu.be/PWkJDPY19rg

    Either way from what I remember he more or less feeds the colour food and growth 50/50 all through the growing season and just adjusts accordingly if they need more growth or more colour promotion basically. Very interesting on the way you mentioned though too, I have heard of people doing exactly that too, an intense colour feed period then changed for the autumn which is kind of what I aim to do after feeding the colour all summer but we will see.

    A couple of my koi were brought as tosai and I got them at the end of the season where they had turned to nisai from Keepers koi. He has what are like big chicken sheds with pretty much zero natural light which his fish in so big lights but as a result the colours need a bit of time in the sun before they go to where they should be and with the covers on a lot of the time on my pond still they could do with some help, although he feeds SH growth and colour so they have had a decent boost already

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    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Ricky is always banging on about colour food, literally, always.

    So I looked at it, and its expensive. Explains why most people go for either Growth or Multiseason and stick with those, which lets be honest are not cheap foods themselves.

    Btw, I feed Saki Balance down to 8C, no issues. I prefer it to Saki multi-season and probably won't buy the multi-season again.

    Used Kusuri Multi-Season for 2 winters and thought it was great food, ingredients on a par with Saki Balance, if not even better, but price wise the Kusuri is now on a par with the Saki.

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  29. #16
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samp09 View Post
    I think it was on his video about the Isa Showa Tosai he had grown to Nisai, but I also might be wrong as have watched a fair few of his videos. So it may be in this one (Isa harvest): https://youtu.be/z0QTskMy0OE its about 36 minutes long. Its got some stunning showa in but a long watch if wrong! Or it might be this one which is 11 minutes and someone mentions SH in the comments: https://youtu.be/PWkJDPY19rg

    Either way from what I remember he more or less feeds the colour food and growth 50/50 all through the growing season and just adjusts accordingly if they need more growth or more colour promotion basically. Very interesting on the way you mentioned though too, I have heard of people doing exactly that too, an intense colour feed period then changed for the autumn which is kind of what I aim to do after feeding the colour all summer but we will see.

    A couple of my koi were brought as tosai and I got them at the end of the season where they had turned to nisai from Keepers koi. He has what are like big chicken sheds with pretty much zero natural light which his fish in so big lights but as a result the colours need a bit of time in the sun before they go to where they should be and with the covers on a lot of the time on my pond still they could do with some help, although he feeds SH growth and colour so they have had a decent boost already

    thanks i'll have a look at those video's

    you might get away with hammering colour at 50/50 all summer in tosai, but with larger fish i think it could ruin the shiroji?
    i think the one month of colour intensity is basically the way they do it in preparation for the show season in november/december in Japan.
    to get maximum beni, with just enough time to clean up the shiroji.

    but you can't knock ricky's results... those showa are stunning
    Last edited by davethefish1; 05-05-2022 at 10:51 AM.

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  31. #17
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    Ricky is always banging on about colour food, literally, always.

    So I looked at it, and its expensive. Explains why most people go for either Growth or Multiseason and stick with those, which lets be honest are not cheap foods themselves.

    Btw, I feed Saki Balance down to 8C, no issues. I prefer it to Saki multi-season and probably won't buy the multi-season again.

    Used Kusuri Multi-Season for 2 winters and thought it was great food, ingredients on a par with Saki Balance, if not even better, but price wise the Kusuri is now on a par with the Saki.
    i can see why he uses so much colour food, he is in the business of selling those fish, and while the shiroji is ok but not brilliant. the colour is very sharp and intense.
    most buyers look at colour depth before shiroji, as one season can make muddy skin white as snow, but getting colour back that has faded is much harder...

    to be honest saki hikari shouldn't even be able to get a look in, in the UK... considering the importation mark up on it.@ 67 for 15kg in Japan
    or rather, the likes of kusuri and other brands should be able to sell theirs much cheaper...

    i wonder if kursuri ect... would still be the same price if we had a trade deal with Japan and no importation costs. and saki hikari was 80 for 15kg over here...?
    i reckon the european foods would halve there prices....and still make a profit...

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  33. #18
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion samp09's Avatar
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    Thats the thing, buying a fish you would often be drawn to the fish which stands out the most to begin with, which is the one with the brightest colours, or a large percentage of hobbyists will be anyway. This is often the case with Shiro & Showa, where people want a finished fish at tosai and so the shiro that are only carrying underlying sumi and otherwise all white like the one I got from Adam will often be the ones that get left and 2-3 years later are completely different fish that people can't quite believe. Similar to Showa with next to no sumi at all. Buy a frog to get a prince

    I will see how I get on with the colour food as can easily ease it off if they are going too yellow. I guess its finding the balance between getting the size on them quickly through summer without losing the quality of the beni/sumi as it stretches. I guess the other difference is in Japan they are preparing for a show whereas I am just trying to get them to grow as big as possible whilst retaining the colour and helping the beni/sumi the best I can, as it certainly seems like its easier to pull shiroji back, as beni won't return in 99% of cases

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  35. #19
    Senior Member Rank = Rokusai Naoki Atsumi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spongebob View Post
    How do you know what the UK hobbyist has been practicing?
    The KOI exhibited at the KOI Show in the UK reveal nothing about the intentions of the exibitors or the direction they are aiming for. It just lays out the current situation and is boring.
    It is out of the question to think that it is acceptable to interrupt and inhibit the feeding behaviour of KOI in June or July, much less August.

    東山レッド低水温用
    This food isn't common among hobbyists, but there's a colour enhancer that turns bright red even at low water temperatures during the winter. Hobbyists don't usually mess with it (unless you're the type of trophy maniac who tries to win awards with smaller sized KOIs).

    These products are quite expensive but on the other hand they are now becoming indispensable among professional breeders. This is because when selling TOSAI abroad, the unit price of TOSAI with and without these feeds is many times different. Advanced Japanese hobbyists are involved in colour enhancing themselves, so they know whether the KOI is red or not due to the effect of colour food. So, in fact, there is even a tendency to avoid excessively reddened TOSAI for short-term economic purposes. (Feeding colour food TOSAI while they are small makes it difficult to judge whether the quality of the BENI is good or bad by homogenising it.)
    Last edited by Naoki Atsumi; 05-05-2022 at 12:39 PM.

  36. #20
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion samp09's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naoki Atsumi View Post
    The KOI exhibited at the KOI Show in the UK reveal nothing about the intentions of the exibitors or the direction they are aiming for. It just lays out the current situation and is boring.
    It is out of the question to think that it is acceptable to interrupt and inhibit the feeding behaviour of KOI in June or July, much less August.

    東山レッド低水温用
    This food isn't common among hobbyists, but there's a colour enhancer that turns bright red even at low water temperatures during the winter. Hobbyists don't usually mess with it (unless you're the type of trophy maniac who tries to win awards with smaller sized KOIs).

    These products are quite expensive but on the other hand they are now becoming indispensable among professional breeders. This is because when selling TOSAI abroad, the unit price of TOSAI with and without these feeds is many times different. Advanced Japanese hobbyists are involved in colour enhancing themselves, so they know whether the KOI is red or not due to the effect of colour food. So, in fact, there is even a tendency to avoid excessively reddened TOSAI for short-term economic purposes. (Feeding colour food TOSAI while they are small makes it difficult to judge whether the quality of the BENI is good or bad by homogenising it.)

    We are still waiting for you to be the distributor of these foods to the UK for the same price as in Japan so we can enjoy them too at a fair price

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