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  1. #1
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    New Fluke Treatments

    so as said in another thread i'll be doing a dosage regime based on Jos Derks reccomendations.
    he said a highly active biological filter will quickly reduce the medication. and who knows how much medication is left after 24 hours?
    and to alternate different medications if they are not working first time.
    safe medication to dose like this he said are praziquantel and flubenol.

    but did not mention any of the new medications including nitroscanate,
    like flukesolve plus, and learnex pro, so i wouldn't dose those he didn't specifically mention them.
    and to clean the filters to reduce organic load, especially purging bottom drain pipes.
    also to turn off filters for a period of hours to allow the medication to work in the pond, without the filters immediately breaking it down.
    then turning the filters back on so they then also get the treatment.

    for skin flukes @ 11:30 on video
    full dose day 1,
    half dose day 2,
    half dose day 3.


    and for gill flukes based on 18C egg hatching time @14:45 on video
    day 1 full dose
    day 2 half dose
    day 3 half dose

    day 6 full dose
    day 7 half dose
    day 8 half dose




    Last edited by davethefish1; 02-05-2022 at 09:58 AM.

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    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    Jos also mentioned currently working on new medications for flukes that are 2 years away...
    though i have found that learnex have developed a medicated food,
    i wonder when /if we will see that on the shelves over here?

    https://shop.selectkoi.nl/en/colombo-morenicol-lernex-food-pro-800-gr.html


    Last edited by davethefish1; 01-05-2022 at 10:15 PM.

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    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    the aquaculture fish industry currently treats with bath treatments and medicated foods but has battled with palitability due to praziquantels bitter taste.
    they have had some success adding the medication to frozen live food.
    and even as far as administering parziquantel injections

    interesting reading, even if some of the the science goes over my head

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...11320722000045

    https://mdpi-res.com/d_attachment/applsci/applsci-11-04656/article_deploy/applsci-11-04656-v2.pdf?version=1621500625








    https://pdf.sciencedirectassets.com/...4b9c59ad55073a

    of interest to us might be the dosage rates (page 6/16) of the above link PDF for oral and mg/l for bath (pond) treatments of praziquantel
    on Dactylogyrus and Gyrodactylus in common carp (Cyprinus carpio)

    180 minute treatment at 5mg/L in a 2 litre tank 100% success

    so that works out at 10 mg/L of fluke treatment (50% prazi powder) for 3 hours with a 100% success rate
    what we don't know is the effect of a scientific study treatment like this on the fish dead/alive?

    if that worked, a 3 hour stronger treatment in a koi vat to kill the flukes on the fish,
    plus a pond wide treatment could be an option for higher efficacy.

    conversely a higher dose of 13.5 mg/L on crassius aeratus (gold fish) for 48 hours against Dactylogyrus intermedius only yielded 93.3% success...
    from a different study(link below)...which also showed a decreased immunity to bacterial infection by treatment of praziquantel along with sanguinarine.
    which may be a good consideration for an anti bacterial treatment post successful fluke treatment.

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...50464813007006

    also skin fluke Benedenia Seriolae (marine worm)
    48 hour treatment at 2.5mg/L in a 400 litre pond success rate 100%
    i know it's a marine fish, and a marine skin fluke, but gives some scientific back ground on treatment...

    so that dosage should work out at 2.5mg/L = 2.5g/1000L of pure praziquantel.
    fluke solve and fluke S are 50% prazi powders so 5g/1000L
    which is 1g/1000L higher than the reccomended dosage of 4g/1000L on the packets.

    it would be intersting to know if the reason the dosage is just 1g/1000L lower on fluke S and fluke solve,
    is for an extra safety margin, koi sensitivity to praziquantel, laboratory efficacy at the lower dosage rate, or some other reason?

    Dactylogyrus extensus(gill fluke)...... Cyprinus carpio(common carp)...... B = BATH, duration 180 min..... 5mg/L......EFFICACY 100%...... EXP: 2 L tank

    Dactylogyrus vastator (gill fluke)....... Cyprinus carpio(common carp) .......B= BATH, duration 180 min...... 5mg/L.....EFFICACY 100%..... EXP: 2 L tank

    Table 3
    Use of PZQ in aquaculture against monogeneans. Bbath, Ooral, I - intubation, Inj - injection. EXPexperiment, COMcommercial.


    FLUKE: Benedenia seriolae..... FISH: Seriola lalandi (yellow tail amberjack)... B = BATH... DURATION 48 h.... DOSAGE2.5 mg/L....EFFICACY 100%.... EXP: 400 L tank (Sharp et al. (2004)
    Last edited by davethefish1; 01-05-2022 at 11:43 PM.

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    Senior Member Rank = Hassai Alburglar's Avatar
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    Just PP the pond before you add flukesolve works every time for me. You'll never get rid of flukes cos birds droppings etc put them back in but you just need to get to get the fish through spring into the warmer weather and then nature takes care of itself.
    Kikusui, Beni Kikokuryu, Hariwake, Sanke, Yotsujiro, Doitsu Aka Bekko, Purachina & Mukashi Ogon.

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  9. #5
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alburglar View Post
    Just PP the pond before you add flukesolve works every time for me. You'll never get rid of flukes cos birds droppings etc put them back in but you just need to get to get the fish through spring into the warmer weather and then nature takes care of itself.
    that's not been my experience of gill or skin flukes,
    they've only come in on new fish....
    the old 'bird droppings' bringing parasites in, is an excuse i've only heard at a shop selling fish


    i successfully treated my pond for gill flukes in 2020 after a total of 6 treatments.
    then i had no new fish and no flukes for 2 years....none.

    last year new pond, same fish, no flukes...
    new fish stocked.... and now i have flukes...

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    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion samp09's Avatar
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    One thing I have noticed is my fish don't have a thick mucus coat, probably due to the treatments etc in the last year, so once executing Jos' recommendations, I will use something like Aquasource revitalise or the Colombo version fish protect to hopefully thicken them once the flukes are hopefully gone to try offer better protection for the fish this summer. I do have some revitalise already but may get some of the fish protect as well just to follow up with a week later after a water change as don't want something taking advantage after a harsh treatment.

    It is a shame the findings are not clear on if the fish are alive or not, I would imagine so tho if its only 1g per 1000L extra. To be perfectly honest I have measured my pond volume to around 13500L plus my pipework and filter so always treat for a minimum 15k although have treated Lernex at a rate for 17k for 2 doses on the bounce and still had flukes after. I think the issue with lernex was getting it to dissolve effectively and the fact that my shower filter still had so much crap in it when I deep cleaned it this spring.
    Last edited by samp09; 02-05-2022 at 08:11 AM.

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  13. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by davethefish1 View Post
    Jos also mentioned currently working on new medications for flukes that are 2 years away...
    though i have found that learnex have developed a medicated food,
    i wonder when /if we will see that on the shelves over here?

    https://shop.selectkoi.nl/en/colombo-morenicol-lernex-food-pro-800-gr.html





    I remember seeing that for sale a few years ago, was tempted to try but after reading about fish just spitting it back out I opted for the lernex pro approach.

    Here is an old thread about the food.

    https://www.koiforum.uk/koi-health-d...preiences.html

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    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samp09 View Post
    One thing I have noticed is my fish don't have a thick mucus coat, probably due to the treatments etc in the last year, so once executing Jos' recommendations, I will use something like Aquasource revitalise or the Colombo version fish protect to hopefully thicken them once the flukes are hopefully gone to try offer better protection for the fish this summer. I do have some revitalise already but may get some of the fish protect as well just to follow up with a week later after a water change as don't want something taking advantage after a harsh treatment.

    It is a shame the findings are not clear on if the fish are alive or not, I would imagine so tho if its only 1g per 1000L extra. To be perfectly honest I have measured my pond volume to around 13500L plus my pipework and filter so always treat for a minimum 15k although have treated Lernex at a rate for 17k for 2 doses on the bounce and still had flukes after. I think the issue with lernex was getting it to dissolve effectively and the fact that my shower filter still had so much crap in it when I deep cleaned it this spring.
    mine are the same now, re mucous coating, as they have had 2 x PP treatments in the space of 2 weeks.
    latest scrapes had hardly any mucous compared to first scrapes.

    i'd agree with the coating medication after fluke treatment,
    the second paper by C Zhang: showed a lowered immune reponse to the pathogenic bacteria (Aeromonas Hydrophila) by praziquantel treatment of flukes in goldfish.
    so though the treatment for flukes removes the infecting organisim,fluke.
    a dose of an anti bacterial agent like FMG, Malachite Green, or Virkon Aquatic to reduce bacterial load, and a coating to protect the fish from infection should work well.

    this is the trouble with scientific papers they are not really made for a layman's interpretation
    but when no other information or evidence is available what else can you do...?

    i agree cleaning filters and purging drains is some thing i do before any medication,
    but due to the rapid breakdown by the bio filters, i'll be shutting my filters down for at least 18 hours,
    and just running them for a couple of minutes every hour so, to keep the shower media wet, and make sure they get a full 'dose' of the medication but don't get to continually break it down quickly.

    another issue with this treatment that he mentions is cost...
    the largest packets of praziquantel are woefully small for even a modest pond, the largest a 100g, will do 2 x full treatments in 2500 gallons.
    but to do a single course of treatment a full dose and two half doses on days 1,2,3, and 6,7,8
    for a 2500 gallon will need 200g of prazi...@ 100
    or for a 5,000 gallon pond 400g @ 200

    they need to start producing bulk packets cheaper like learnex pro are doing with their meds in 2500ml tubs...
    can you bulk buy praziquantel in 500g or 1 kilo tubs?

    https://www.nikoi.nl/en/colombo-more...ex-pro-2500-ml

    Last edited by davethefish1; 02-05-2022 at 10:12 AM.

  16. #9
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kikokuryu John View Post
    I remember seeing that for sale a few years ago, was tempted to try but after reading about fish just spitting it back out I opted for the lernex pro approach.

    Here is an old thread about the food.

    https://www.koiforum.uk/koi-health-d...preiences.html

    thanks for that link,
    i agree, it's the main drawback the scientific papers found, palatability.
    though they managed to get round that by using a strong flavoured, and highly palatable fresh frozen food (sandeels in the case of tuna)
    but if you could medicate it and freeze it, mussels would probably overcome that issue...well in my pond it would

    they tried withdrawing food before feeding the medicated food but still found lots of fish wouldn't eat it.
    apparently praziquantel is very bitter...and i doubt the other meds would taste any better...
    they were talking about encapsulating the meds in micro inclusions in the food but i would image that would be difficult...

    but the other issue as they found in that thread, overdosing when 1 fish eats all the medicated food...
    Last edited by davethefish1; 02-05-2022 at 10:18 AM.

  17. #10
    Senior Member Rank = Hassai Alburglar's Avatar
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    Here's what the holy book says:
    Kikusui, Beni Kikokuryu, Hariwake, Sanke, Yotsujiro, Doitsu Aka Bekko, Purachina & Mukashi Ogon.

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    Senior Member Rank = Hassai Alburglar's Avatar
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    Any reason why people don't use supaverm? It's 60 for a litre and 1ml per 100 UK gallon that would treat 100,000 gallons. So it works out pretty cheap compared to other treatments.

    The book does warn that' it's fatal to goldfish.
    Shake the bottle well. Mix with a gallon of pond water and add it four equal amounts over 4 hours. Do not let koi swim through clouds of concentrated supaverm as it will burn then.
    It sounds like if your careful and do things by the book and have worked out your water volume correctly it's a one dose cure for Gill flukes.

    Water change 15-20% day 4 or 5.
    Last edited by Alburglar; 02-05-2022 at 04:32 PM.
    Kikusui, Beni Kikokuryu, Hariwake, Sanke, Yotsujiro, Doitsu Aka Bekko, Purachina & Mukashi Ogon.

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  20. #12
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alburglar View Post
    Any reason why people don't use supaverm? It's 60 for a litre and 1ml per 100 UK gallon that would treat 100,000 gallons. So it works out pretty cheap compared to other treatments.

    The book does warn that' it's fatal to goldfish.
    Shake the bottle well. Mix with a gallon of pond water and add it four equal amounts over 4 hours. Do not let koi swim through clouds of concentrated supaverm as it will burn then.
    It sounds like if your careful and do things by the book and have worked out your water volume correctly it's a one dose cure for Gill flukes.

    Water change 15-20% day 4 or 5.
    sledgehammer to crack an egg....
    supaverm is a harsh treatment, with reported long term after effects on the immune system.
    i'd only use it as an absolute last resort if everything else had failed, and the fish were at risk...

    same reason we don't/can't use masoten anymore, it works, but the risk level is too high.
    i don't want to cheaply eradicate flukes,
    only to find down the line my fish immune system is compromised and suffer or suspect repeated ill health because of it....

    even duncan recommends flubenol as his treatment of choice for flukes...
    and most vets reccomend more gentle treatment like flubenol or prazi, even if we bitch and moan it isn't strong enough to work first time...
    a combination of the two worked for me last time, it just took 6 flipping weeks!
    but i'd rather that, than risk using a potentially dangerous treatment that could permenantly damage my fish...
    Last edited by davethefish1; 03-05-2022 at 04:16 PM.

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    Senior Member Rank = Hassai Alburglar's Avatar
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    You're right.
    In writing he only recommends flubenol for skin flukes. It is not mentioned at all in relation to Gill flukes until you find this chart.

    Last edited by Alburglar; 02-05-2022 at 05:46 PM.
    Kikusui, Beni Kikokuryu, Hariwake, Sanke, Yotsujiro, Doitsu Aka Bekko, Purachina & Mukashi Ogon.

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    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion samp09's Avatar
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    You can get 100% Prazi from Duncans website: Product Page not sure what the dose is though but might be cheaper?

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  26. #16
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alburglar View Post
    You're right.
    In writing he only recommends flubenol for skin flukes. It is not mentioned at all in relation to Gill flukes until you find this chart.
    thanks,
    i really need to get me a copy of his book...
    the problem with flubenol in a drum filtered pond is it takes weeks to work, or did when i treated in 2020....
    and having a drum off line for a month or more would be a royal pita....

  27. #17
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samp09 View Post
    You can get 100% Prazi from Duncans website: Product Page not sure what the dose is though but might be cheaper?
    flukesolve is 50% prazi in 100g for 50 so 1 per gram, (are class A drugs cheaper? lol)

    and his pure prazi is 30 for 30g so 1 per gram
    both the same price, but flukesolve dissolves more easily...

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    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    i made a list of fluke treatments and worked out thier dosage rates to mg/litre of treated water.
    so i can see the strength of each treatment...

    Lernex Pro is: 1000ml treats 20,000L
    Praziquantel 16.25 mg/ml =0.8125mg/L
    Nitroscanate 3 mg/ml = 3g = 0.15mg/L
    Flubendazole 1mg/ml =1g = 0.05mg/L


    Flukesolve plus is: 100g treats 25,000L
    50% praziquantel 50,000mg = 2.0mg/L
    Nitroscanate 1% = 1g = 0.04mg/L
    Emamectin Benzoate 1.4% = 1.4g = 0.056mg/L


    Flukesolve is: 100g treats 25,000L
    50% praziquantel 50,000mg = 2.0mg/L


    Fluke M is: 65g treats 25,000L
    Flubendazole 50mg/g = 3.25g = 0.13mg/L

    most notable for me is learnex pro has quite low levels of prazi and flubenol, but high in nitroscanate.
    flukesolve plus has a full dose of prazi, and a lower level of nitroscanate plus emamectin benzoate.
    Last edited by davethefish1; 02-05-2022 at 09:53 PM.

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    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    So after two full 50g doses of flukesolve plus previously i still had skin flukes.
    after treating according to Jos Derks method....
    Praziquantel (flukesolve) on day 1, and two half doses on days 2 and 3,
    on day 5 i still have skin flukes. thats 3 full doses, and two half dose's of flukesolve plus and standard...

    i've just bought 2 x 1000ml tubs of lernex pro, and will get up to 3 x full doses from those.
    plus another 2 x full doses if i buy another bottle as i will have 200ml left.

    I've twigged why the medication is dosed my volume in ml and not weight in grams.
    the powder will absorb moisture and increase in weight, making weighing out the medication inaccurate.
    but i did figure out a way of measuring out by weight.

    i measured 10 x 15ml scoops which came to 189g minus the 15g for the plastic tub.
    so 175g divided by 10 to give an average of 17.5g per 15ml scoop.

    which for me worked out to
    11500 litres = 575ml = 38.33 15ml scoops.
    add a 4% overdose = 600ml = 700g

    though that would need to tested each time you dose,
    as the powder can absorb moisture and change the dosage by weight.

    so i did 4 x CT treatments over 4 days, then i mixed the lernex pro powder in my mixing bucket with stream pump, for a few minutes.
    stopped the filter pumps, then added the milky liquid to the pond.
    within 3 or 4 minutes it had completely dissolved and no trace of bits or cloudiness was left in the water.
    it was as clear as it had been before adding it...

    so i didn't bother bypassing the drum as there is no powder residue left to remove...
    so i started the pumps and filters back up.
    the only thing turn off is the trickle in and the UV...






    tub weight 15g




    + 10 x 15ml scoops of Lernex Pro = 175g







    Last edited by davethefish1; 02-06-2022 at 08:12 PM.

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  33. #20
    Senior Member Rank = Jussai g mac's Avatar
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    Hope it works this time
    7500 litres
    Filtreau combi with uv.
    Some koi

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