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  1. #1
    Senior Member Rank = Nanasai Naoki Atsumi's Avatar
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    The most desirable and common scene of wintering in Japan.

    The water temperature is 8 degrees!





    It's hard to believe。。。Σ(oдΟ


    Last edited by Naoki Atsumi; 21-01-2022 at 05:11 PM.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Rank = Mature Champion smartin's Avatar
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    Hi Naoki,

    what are we seeing here ? whats hard to believe dare i ask....some translation would be helpful
    lovely looking pond and fish...
    2200 gallons,infinity window,
    Evolve 4k combi,spindrifter,
    2x20k pumps, BD,Skimmer,
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  4. #3
    Senior Member Rank = Nanasai Naoki Atsumi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smartin View Post
    Hi Naoki,

    what are we seeing here ? whats hard to believe dare i ask....some translation would be helpful
    lovely looking pond and fish...
    Isn't their movement, swimming and condition so lively that it's hard to believe the water temperature is 8 degrees?
    Last edited by Naoki Atsumi; 22-01-2022 at 02:27 PM.

  5. #4
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion samp09's Avatar
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    Well contrary to your usual statements about not feeding under 15 degrees, there is a load of food which is exactly why these fish are like they are, so does this mean that to see koi behaving like these we now should be feeding in 8 degrees? Because mine would look exactly the same as I am sure everyone else's fish would!

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  7. #5
    Yawn..............
    34,000L, 2xSpindrifters, Aqua Sieve2, Nexus300, 24in K1/bead, Momotaro Bakki, 17kwThermotec Inverter

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  9. #6
    Senior Member Rank = Nanasai Naoki Atsumi's Avatar
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    He concludes the film with these words.
    今年は、庭池の鯉も健康で太く育つように頑張ってみます
    He says the secret of good health is to grow a thicker KOI.

    I always say that the rise from the back to the waist,
    for example, is the width of this middle size KOHAKU and the thickness of the tail tube.
    ※As an extreme example, this Showa

    In other words, the thickness of the body is the accumulation of nutrients that will help the body to last through the winter.

  10. #7
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai KevT's Avatar
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    Hi

    Another poor UK resident who doesn't understand this post. My water is 6 degrees in West Yorkshire UK and the fish are never still - they even eat the odd wheat germ pellet if offered and when I lift the covers they come over to have a look

    I'm sure that the fish in most of the UK ponds are swimming around as well too as the weather hasn't been too cold yet this year

    KevT

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  12. #8
    Senior Member Rank = Nanasai Naoki Atsumi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevT View Post
    Hi

    Another poor UK resident who doesn't understand this post. My water is 6 degrees in West Yorkshire UK and the fish are never still - they even eat the odd wheat germ pellet if offered and when I lift the covers they come over to have a look

    I'm sure that the fish in most of the UK ponds are swimming around as well too as the weather hasn't been too cold yet this year

    KevT
    That's good evidence that we're doing the best we can!! ٩(ˊᗜˋ*)و -

    These are the KOIs that are kept close to nature in Japan.
    MKB Carp and friends
    Last edited by Naoki Atsumi; 24-01-2022 at 06:36 AM.

  13. #9
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion samp09's Avatar
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    This post make absolutely no sense though as you are contradicting all your other posts in regards to feeding fish in winter. Do you not see this?

    For about a year you have said it is important not to feed the koi under 15 degrees and feed heavily through the summer months. You have said the koi must NOT be fed in winter as this will encourage parasites due to them not digesting food well and they will be in perfect condition from the feeding season meaning they have the strength to fend off any parasites through winter.

    You have now sent a video saying look at how the koi are behaving and how this is the result of the feeding regime you keep mentioning which includes not feeding under 15 degrees. The koi are being fed at 8 degrees which is the exact reason they are acting how they are which completely contradicts your statement. Do you not see this?

    As you like a football reference, this post is like you spending all year saying how Christiano Ronaldo is the only person who will score a goal from a penalty, then when a different player takes the penalty and scores you then saying see I told you only Christiano would score when he has not in fact scored the penalty.

    The best way to describe this post with all your others would be an own goal.

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  15. #10
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion Ajm's Avatar
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    In short the man/robot is ful of shite

    Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
    Freddyboy the legend

    "we are water keepers first"

    Johnathan

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  17. #11
    Senior Member Rank = Nanasai Naoki Atsumi's Avatar
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    KOI is looking for food, but as the water temperature is below 10 degrees Celsius at this time, we are not feeding it.
    In another video he says something that is common knowledge to all.

    多年魚は、低水温時に餌を与えても目に見えて成長することはありませんし、
    水温12℃以下の餌やりは消化不良などでデメリットしかありません。
    水温10℃以下では、餌を与えてもほぼ食べませんしね
    地域差や環境にもよりますが、体力のある多年魚は、餌を与えなくても★になる事はないので
    水温が下がって動きがスローになったら
    餌を止めて越冬させたほうが◎


    Feeding perennial fish at low water temperatures will not result in any noticeable growth, and
    Feeding at water temperatures below 12°C (54°F) is a disadvantage due to digestive problems.
    And when the water temperature is below 10 degrees Celsius, they almost never eat what you feed them.
    It depends on regional differences and the environment,
    but the perennial fish with strength will not become ★ even if you do not feed them. 
    When the water temperature drops and the movement slows down
    It is better to stop feeding them and let them overwinter.

    ※I think the meaning of "★" here is loss of weight or death.

    〇KOI with strength
    〇to grow a thicker KOI.
    This is how they were kept during the summer and autumn periods to achieve these build-ups.
    2021年9月
    2020年10月
    ※The KOI is a period of fattening, not to make the chest and lower body fat,
    but to make the shoulders wider, the back firmer and the tail tube thicker.
    Last edited by Naoki Atsumi; 24-01-2022 at 10:50 AM.

  18. #12
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samp09 View Post
    Well contrary to your usual statements about not feeding under 15 degrees, there is a load of food which is exactly why these fish are like they are, so does this mean that to see koi behaving like these we now should be feeding in 8 degrees? Because mine would look exactly the same as I am sure everyone else's fish would!

    Mine too.

    Couldn't have put it better myself, just doesn't make sense to be told not to feed koi below a certain temp and then being shown an "unbelievable" video of active healthy koi in winter..... Gorging themselves at half the recommended minimum temp!

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  20. #13
    I've kept quiet in these threads about refusing to feed koi below 15 C when they are obviously looking for food but there are widespread misunderstandings about feeding koi in winter.

    When their water is cold, koi will want very little food but it's important to feed them if they are actively looking for it. Although koi will survive not being fed during winter, they will emerge in better condition if they are fed limited amounts when they are looking for food.

    It's a widespread myth that carp hibernate in winter in lakes or in unheated ponds when the water becomes too cold for their normal behaviour. They don't, they just retreat to the bottom of their environment where it's slightly warmer. Their metabolism slows right down and they don't move very much in order to conserve energy. However, they must still use some energy in order to maintain the body functions necessary to stay alive. For example, the heart, gills and osmoregulation must never stop working and these functions use energy. In the carp natural environment, as their stored energy in the form of ATP (adenosine triphosphate) depletes, they will occasionally feel the need to go searching for food in order to top it up again. No artificially imposed limits by koi keepers will stop fish in natural lakes from eating very small amounts when they need to.

    Related to that, it's another myth that fish are too stupid to know when the water is too cold for them to digest food. The enzymes that control the metabolism of food and the appetite are linked so that they match, regardless of the temperature. So, when the temperature falls below the point where they can digest, they have no appetite and just simply don't attempt to eat anyway.

    Fish have evolved to instinctively know what's best for them. If a fish in the wild wanted to eat, it would do so and fish have evolved quite successfully following their natural instincts. If carp continued to eat when it was too cold with the consequence that the food rotted in their gut and caused them serious health problems or death then they wouldn’t have survived evolution and the species would now be extinct. So why do koi in a pond need us to impose artificial temperature limits when we stop them eating if they need to?

    My thoughts on winter feeding are on my website here:
    www.mankysanke.co.uk/html/winter_feeding.html

    It isn't just my own personal theory, Paula Reynolds has very long experience in koi health and physiology and does research for multinational companies. She is a universally recognised expert and this is what she has recently added on her website about feeding in winter:

    "The variable approach to pond management during the colder months means some Koi are unfed for too long a period. When Koi are dormant in winter, they do not need food and will sit on the pond floor conserving body resources and energy. However, some days are milder, and many ponds are naturally warmer and the Koi will be active and seeking food. If unfed yet active, they will exhaust their nutrient store, making them vulnerable. There has been concern for years that food will putrefy in the gut during winter rather than be excreted. However, stasis, the term applied when the muscles that process digestion have stopped working, is misunderstood in Koi. It is a myth that Koi should not be fed from autumn until spring. On all mild days during the colder months of the year, Koi will be looking for food and a wheat germ based food, or all season pellets should be fed."

    Read the full article on her website here:
    Feeding koi

  21. #14
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai KevT's Avatar
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    Hi

    I feed both mealworm and wheatgerm in the winter - meal worm have got to be as close to the insects a carp would find in a natural waterway as they may come across a beetle or two in the mud of a pond in a mature natural pond in the UK

    Kev

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  23. #15
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion samp09's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naoki Atsumi View Post
    KOI is looking for food, but as the water temperature is below 10 degrees Celsius at this time, we are not feeding it.
    In another video he says something that is common knowledge to all.

    多年魚は、低水温時に餌を与えても目に見えて成長することはありませんし、
    水温12℃以下の餌やりは消化不良などでデメリットしかありません。
    水温10℃以下では、餌を与えてもほぼ食べませんしね
    地域差や環境にもよりますが、体力のある多年魚は、餌を与えなくても★になる事はないので
    水温が下がって動きがスローになったら
    餌を止めて越冬させたほうが◎


    Feeding perennial fish at low water temperatures will not result in any noticeable growth, and
    Feeding at water temperatures below 12°C (54°F) is a disadvantage due to digestive problems.
    And when the water temperature is below 10 degrees Celsius, they almost never eat what you feed them.
    It depends on regional differences and the environment,
    but the perennial fish with strength will not become ★ even if you do not feed them. 
    When the water temperature drops and the movement slows down
    It is better to stop feeding them and let them overwinter.

    ※I think the meaning of "★" here is loss of weight or death.

    〇KOI with strength
    〇to grow a thicker KOI.
    This is how they were kept during the summer and autumn periods to achieve these build-ups.
    2021年9月
    2020年10月
    ※The KOI is a period of fattening, not to make the chest and lower body fat,
    but to make the shoulders wider, the back firmer and the tail tube thicker.

    Whilst I am wasting my breath here, Please look closely at this video you have sent us, the fish are in fact being fed in 8 degrees which is why they are behaving how they are. They are not LOOKING for food, they are EATING the food which is covering the surface of the pond.

    Thank you Syd for an excellent explanation on the importance of feeding koi when they are looking for food

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  25. #16
    Senior Member Rank = Jussai Spongebob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajm View Post
    In short the man/robot is ful of shite

    Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
    Well Naoki I fed mine today at 9 degrees, they fed like tosai out of my hand, I had to double check the temp to make sure it wasnt 19! You should read Mankey Sankes post as someone who really knows what he’s talking about! Fish will eat when they are hungry, it’s not rocket science!
    Fibreglassed/5000 gals/4.5 m Tunnel/Spindrifter/Twin drums/Bio chambers/Beads/Showers/Remora ASHP

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  27. #17
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Adult Champion NickK-UK's Avatar
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    Mine are currently sat like sardines at the bottom. The pond is unheated and the weather we've had (-4 some nights) with ice even on the large pond has seem them hibernate at the deepest area of the pond.

    If they're hungry they will go looking for food - I may feed them at that point. At the moment I'm not disturbing them lol.
    14000l, my mutts: Chargoi (2010), Doitsu (2022), Tancho (2022), Kujaku (2022), Hi Utusri (2022)

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  29. #18
    Senior Member Rank = Nanasai Naoki Atsumi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    Mine too.

    Couldn't have put it better myself, just doesn't make sense to be told not to feed koi below a certain temp and then being shown an "unbelievable" video of active healthy koi in winter..... Gorging themselves at half the recommended minimum temp!
    Thus, even if they show an interest in predation, not feeding them artificially is a great option.
    It can be difficult to talk at this point with people who are not too interested in whether they are worth digesting and the changes in body shape they cause.

    What I marveled at more than that was the physical condition of the KOI. (It is impossible to prevent them from pecking at floating prey items and other mosses and plants (especially if they are accompanied by predatory behaviour). There is also no point in worrying about their digestion of it.

    It is the fact that the water quality and the mood of the pond, including the physical condition of the fish, remain the same as in the images shown earlier in September and October.

    And mainly because in this video he carefully explains the result of reducing the number of KOI from the peak feeding period.
    If the numbers had been the same, he would not have been able to achieve this, etc.

    It's nowhere a statement about feeding or not feeding, it's a statement that he made three posts earlier
    Feeding at water temperatures below 12°C (54°F) is a disadvantage due to digestive problems. So, of course, if the water temperature is 8°C, even if they show predatory behaviour I would have thought that if the water temperature is 8°C they would not be feeding, at least not aggressively, contrary to that statement.
    And mainly because in this video he carefully explains the result of reducing the number of KOI from the peak feeding period.
    If the numbers had been the same, he would not have been able to achieve this, etc.

    It's not a statement about feeding or not on this video, it's a statement that he made three posts earlier
    『Feeding at water temperatures below 12°C (54°F) is a disadvantage due to digestive problems. 』
    I would have thought that if the water temperature is 8°C they would not be feeding, at least not aggressively, contrary to that statement.

    Are you feeding when the water temperature is 8 degrees?
    Would you like to ask him?

  30. #19
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion samp09's Avatar
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    He is feeding his fish at 8 degrees which is the reason they are behaving how they are. It is clear as day there is pellets on the surface of his pond which they are eating, there is no predation going on, they are eating the pellets he has fed. It really is not difficult to see.

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  32. #20
    Naoki,

    You say people aren't interested in whether koi digest the food we feed and you say that feeding koi below 12°C will cause digestive problems so could you please answer the following:

    Do you accept what I put in my post above that "carp use energy to stay alive in winter (heart, gills, osmoregulation etc.) and, in a natural lake, will occasionally eat small amounts to top up their energy reserves"

    Do you accept "it's another myth that fish are too stupid to know when the water is too cold for them to digest food. The enzymes that control the metabolism of food and the appetite are linked so that they match, regardless of the temperature. So, when the temperature falls below the point where they can digest, they have no appetite and just simply don't attempt to eat anyway."

    Do you accept "Fish have evolved to instinctively know what's best for them. If a fish in the wild wanted to eat, it would do so and fish have evolved quite successfully following their natural instincts. If carp continued to eat when it was too cold with the consequence that the food rotted in their gut and caused them serious health problems or death then they wouldn’t have survived evolution and the species would now be extinct."

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