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Thread: Tosai to nisai
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13-01-2022, 05:37 PM #21
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13-01-2022, 06:46 PM #22
You can never tell for certain how much Sumi you'll end up with when choosing a young Koi.
You can find Koi with heavy sumi early on often lose sumi later.
And Koi with no Sumi develop it much later on.
They say good Motoguru is a strong indicator of future sumi strength, but I have definitely seen Motoguru disappear, and have equally seen koi with no motoguru in year 1 but it came later on. However it is still worth checking out as an indicator (none of the Koi in that bowl have perfect motoguru from what I can see).
Omasako Shiro Utsuri have a reputation for reliability where Sumi is concerned. Sometimes the less Sumi at a young age the more chance of being female too. I would say the lack of Sumi now cannot be a reliable indication of how much Sumi the Koi will have in the future.
All 3 Koi I circled (squared?) show underlying sumi. But its part of the gamble of younger/cheaper Koi as to where it goes in the future.Last edited by RS2OOO; 13-01-2022 at 06:49 PM.
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14-01-2022, 12:03 AM #23
Your right rs it is a gamble with young fish especially the likes of shiro utsuri I understand that much that's why I opted for omasako track record to edge my bets so to say I've seen about montoguru being a good indication and heavy sumi finished early I think I'm going to prioritze body first get a good shape would be interesting though on the train of thought as to smaller fish being female and the larger being male
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14-01-2022, 12:59 AM #24
The thing is, when a dealer has a bowl of 10 koi you will never know which are really the smaller ones or larger ones to determine male or female as it's too small of a sample size.
Chances are the breeder will have suspected most of the better ones to be male. I have found unsexed koi almost always turn out male! I have 3, possibly 4 females out of my 13 koi and all were bought as unsexed except the one female that I raised from fry.
My shiro, bought as unsexed, is female. She was different to most of the others in the bowl as she had rounded pectoral fins whereas the majority had long straight pectoral fins. That could be a trait to watch out for.
Sent from my Pixel 4a using TapatalkLast edited by RS2OOO; 14-01-2022 at 01:45 AM.
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14-01-2022, 02:12 PM #25
Take a look at the Omasako Shiro Utsuri on this page for some development photos demonstrating how Sumi comes/goes/reappears, or just doesn't develop until 3 or 4 years old.
Omosako Koifarm – Premium-Nishikigoi International
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14-01-2022, 04:20 PM #26
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14-01-2022, 05:20 PM #27
Very interesting them pictures top set shows sort of what I expected bottom set is unbelievable and could cause people to get rid of the fish as a pond fillers with no sumi and some one then ends up with the bargain when the sumi appear again the following season
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14-01-2022, 06:51 PM #28
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14-01-2022, 09:46 PM #29
Shiro's can be more difficult to work out how the sumi pattern is going to be i think....
compared to kohaku that pretty much show the full basic beni pattern at tosai, and it just (hopefully) continues to grow...
probably why 'good' young kohaku are so expensive.
my own shiro made quite a big change in a couple of years from tosai to sansai.
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15-01-2022, 12:45 AM #30
That's a nice shiro dave the head has gone nice and white and the beni jet black and it's kept it's body you done very well there
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15-01-2022, 08:57 AM #31
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16-01-2022, 07:46 PM #32
That's always the way though isn't it the underdog doing better than the prize champion
No but your shiro is very dave and grown very well hope mine goes the same way in size
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davethefish1 Thanked / Liked this Post
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16-01-2022, 08:06 PM #33
This is the one I opted for 29cm omasako shiro for the princely sum of £125
It's the big fish at the bottom on the right
Comets good and bad are honestly welcome
Reason for choice was a combination of i did like it and koi forum advice
Big strong bodynamic
Montaguru strong in pecs
Sumi not finished but strong underneath IMG_2814.jpgIMG_2810.jpg
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16-01-2022, 08:42 PM #34
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16-01-2022, 09:09 PM #35
Thank samp if I was going to criticise I'd say one side and little heavy on sumi and head could be a bit heavy with sumi that's 50/50
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16-01-2022, 10:23 PM #36
Yes although as it grows it may look a bit more balanced, a good choice in my eyes and would be welcome in my pond!
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03-07-2022, 09:04 AM #37
Hows this shiro getting on Whitey? I was looking for information regarding the kind of growth expected from a nisai to sansai and came across this thread.
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Ajm Thanked / Liked this Post
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03-07-2022, 10:23 AM #38
Hi sam the shiro I bought is doing well in my eyes I had a bit of fin rot appear early on treated it and everything been fine I put the fish in at 29 cm funny enough I had it out I'm hoping her this week and she measured up at 41cm aswel as length she going wide as well couple of pics from today20220703_100539.jpg20220703_100205.jpg20220703_100512.jpg
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03-07-2022, 02:14 PM #39
Doing a great job with that much growth already!
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03-07-2022, 02:32 PM #40
Interesting development and great growth.
I forgot about this thread and bought a Nisai Omasako GR Shiro from Gatwick a month ago.
Measured Just 24.5cm, and like you I was concerned about the small size.
One month on and she's a lot fatter and now 27cm.
Doubtful I'll achieve the growth you have mind.
I have noticed significant fading of the Sumi, looks really washed out compared to when I collected, but hopefully will come back.
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Whitey79 Thanked / Liked this Post
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pug has a very impressive veg filter on his pond, have a look at some of his his youtube videos....