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Thread: Tosai to nisai

  1. #21
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitey79 View Post
    Dave what a fish Mary was and Brazil and the bishop they don't make records that good looking anymore as for size it's more width than llength don't you find I also read somewhere that big carp also let of some sort of signal or something that keeps the smaller carp in the lake smaller take Mary as an example whilst she was alive the other fish never really challenged her weight wise and never drastically put on weight but when she died they all started to pile the weight on until one became the big girl again then the growing slowed again and apparently it's been noted across plenty of lakes to happen how true I don't know but food for thought hey
    one of the reasons they say to do lots of water changes in a koi pond,
    is to remove the hormones they release that can reduce growth in other fish.
    lots advocate 10% a day in the growing season....

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  3. #22
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitey79 View Post
    Rs not bad choices there the one on the left has a nice body but I like alot of sumi and from the pictures there's not a lot of sumi and not a lot underlying from pics but the body looks amazing going to look at them I think on Sunday had a price on them at under 150 for omasako I suppose it might be worth a gamble
    You can never tell for certain how much Sumi you'll end up with when choosing a young Koi.

    You can find Koi with heavy sumi early on often lose sumi later.

    And Koi with no Sumi develop it much later on.

    They say good Motoguru is a strong indicator of future sumi strength, but I have definitely seen Motoguru disappear, and have equally seen koi with no motoguru in year 1 but it came later on. However it is still worth checking out as an indicator (none of the Koi in that bowl have perfect motoguru from what I can see).

    Omasako Shiro Utsuri have a reputation for reliability where Sumi is concerned. Sometimes the less Sumi at a young age the more chance of being female too. I would say the lack of Sumi now cannot be a reliable indication of how much Sumi the Koi will have in the future.

    All 3 Koi I circled (squared?) show underlying sumi. But its part of the gamble of younger/cheaper Koi as to where it goes in the future.
    Last edited by RS2OOO; 13-01-2022 at 06:49 PM.

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  5. #23
    Senior Member Rank = Yonsai Whitey79's Avatar
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    Your right rs it is a gamble with young fish especially the likes of shiro utsuri I understand that much that's why I opted for omasako track record to edge my bets so to say I've seen about montoguru being a good indication and heavy sumi finished early I think I'm going to prioritze body first get a good shape would be interesting though on the train of thought as to smaller fish being female and the larger being male

  6. #24
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    The thing is, when a dealer has a bowl of 10 koi you will never know which are really the smaller ones or larger ones to determine male or female as it's too small of a sample size.

    Chances are the breeder will have suspected most of the better ones to be male. I have found unsexed koi almost always turn out male! I have 3, possibly 4 females out of my 13 koi and all were bought as unsexed except the one female that I raised from fry.

    My shiro, bought as unsexed, is female. She was different to most of the others in the bowl as she had rounded pectoral fins whereas the majority had long straight pectoral fins. That could be a trait to watch out for.

    Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk
    Last edited by RS2OOO; 14-01-2022 at 01:45 AM.

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  8. #25
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Take a look at the Omasako Shiro Utsuri on this page for some development photos demonstrating how Sumi comes/goes/reappears, or just doesn't develop until 3 or 4 years old.

    Omosako Koifarm – Premium-Nishikigoi International

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  10. #26
    Senior Member Rank = Mature Champion samp09's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    Take a look at the Omasako Shiro Utsuri on this page for some development photos demonstrating how Sumi comes/goes/reappears, or just doesn't develop until 3 or 4 years old.

    Omosako Koifarm – Premium-Nishikigoi International
    That second fish is mad! Loads of Sumi then none then more than to begin with!

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  12. #27
    Senior Member Rank = Yonsai Whitey79's Avatar
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    Very interesting them pictures top set shows sort of what I expected bottom set is unbelievable and could cause people to get rid of the fish as a pond fillers with no sumi and some one then ends up with the bargain when the sumi appear again the following season

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  14. #28
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samp09 View Post
    That second fish is mad! Loads of Sumi then none then more than to begin with!
    Yep, by the end of 2008 you might just have given up with that koi and moved it on.

    Bit like my Doitsu Ochiba - What a bargain the buyer got for 60. 24 hours later it was worth 4 times that!

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  16. #29
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    Shiro's can be more difficult to work out how the sumi pattern is going to be i think....

    compared to kohaku that pretty much show the full basic beni pattern at tosai, and it just (hopefully) continues to grow...
    probably why 'good' young kohaku are so expensive.

    my own shiro made quite a big change in a couple of years from tosai to sansai.




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  18. #30
    Senior Member Rank = Yonsai Whitey79's Avatar
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    That's a nice shiro dave the head has gone nice and white and the beni jet black and it's kept it's body you done very well there

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  20. #31
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitey79 View Post
    That's a nice shiro dave the head has gone nice and white and the beni jet black and it's kept it's body you done very well there
    It did a lot better than the certified sanke i bought at the same time....
    Lost most of its beni and hasn't grown half as much...

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  22. #32
    Senior Member Rank = Yonsai Whitey79's Avatar
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    That's always the way though isn't it the underdog doing better than the prize champion

    No but your shiro is very dave and grown very well hope mine goes the same way in size

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  24. #33
    Senior Member Rank = Yonsai Whitey79's Avatar
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    This is the one I opted for 29cm omasako shiro for the princely sum of 125
    It's the big fish at the bottom on the right

    Comets good and bad are honestly welcome
    Reason for choice was a combination of i did like it and koi forum advice
    Big strong bodynamic
    Montaguru strong in pecs
    Sumi not finished but strong underneath IMG_2814.jpgIMG_2810.jpg

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  26. #34
    Senior Member Rank = Mature Champion samp09's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitey79 View Post
    This is the one I opted for 29cm omasako shiro for the princely sum of 125
    It's the big fish at the bottom on the right

    Comets good and bad are honestly welcome
    Reason for choice was a combination of i did like it and koi forum advice
    Big strong bodynamic
    Montaguru strong in pecs
    Sumi not finished but strong underneath IMG_2814.jpgIMG_2810.jpg
    I think that's a bloody lovely Shiro Whitey!

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  28. #35
    Senior Member Rank = Yonsai Whitey79's Avatar
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    Thank samp if I was going to criticise I'd say one side and little heavy on sumi and head could be a bit heavy with sumi that's 50/50

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  30. #36
    Senior Member Rank = Mature Champion samp09's Avatar
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    Yes although as it grows it may look a bit more balanced, a good choice in my eyes and would be welcome in my pond!

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