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  1. #21
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jampot View Post
    Rounding your figures Dave suggests about £40 pm last winter on the old pond and £20 pm on the new, add a bit for the recent rises and say £400 per year or £200 a year more than an ashp by your guestimate of ashp running costs.

    The £3000 if not invested will pay for 15 years additional running costs of the Elecro!

    I have an ashp but zero insulation apart from covers so it was an easy decision for me but in your case I'd be inclined to run it this winter as is and review with winter figures for the new pond to hand next year.

    Jim
    current costs on the new pond are low because of the delta T, as outside temps aren't that low so heating is less.
    but the new pond has far better insulation.

    this is the issue with total ownership costs...
    ASHP's are so expensive now, having gone from £1000 new a couple of years ago to £2000ish now
    plus pipework, pumps, ect...
    that if you insulate well, you get the crazy scenario where in some ponds, direct electric heating costs over 5-10 years are pretty much the same with no initial outlay....

    the only way to ruin this ( which the governments green policies are set to target)
    is to massively hike the cost of electricity...double, triple, quadruple, what it is now....
    in 5 - 10 years we could be paying £1.00 per kwh...

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  3. #22
    Senior Member Rank = Nanasai Naoki Atsumi's Avatar
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    My suggestion would be to have an intensive feeding period of at least one month. Extreme feeding at a water temperature of around 25°C. Because if this is achieved, the growth and development of KOI will be realized in a tremendous way.
    pondtemp.png
    So apparently there are times when the natural water temperature rises to around 24 degrees Celsius for a week or so in the UK these days, don't you think?
    We believe that it is most cost effective and efficient to keep the heating on for at least a month and a half, which can be any time in June or July.
    However, as I have mentioned elsewhere, that time of year is still full of shows, sales and other events that interfere with the intensive feeding period.
    So I suggested that it would be a good idea to avoid this period of inhibition, or to buy KOI at a lower price during the clearance period, so that during the autumn it would be like summer all over again.

    In any case, a feeding period of at least 25°C should be ensured at some point during the year. Once that is achieved, the natural water temperature should be fine. Once the appetite centre has been maximised and the body shape has increased, particularly in the shoulders and back, the KOI will be strong.
    In this way you can stop feeding completely from December to May, as we do, without any problems, and the KOI will grow and develop better the following year.

    I cannot overlook the UK's current vices of overheating in the winter months at extra cost, and forcing KOI to be fed at around 15 degrees Celsius just because they will eat, causing them to become frail and medicated in the spring and early summer with many problems such as flukes.
    If we are going to add heat, we should do it in an appropriate and effective way.
    Last edited by Naoki Atsumi; 04-10-2021 at 12:14 AM.

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  5. #23
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naoki Atsumi View Post
    My suggestion would be to have an intensive feeding period of at least one month. Extreme feeding at a water temperature of around 25°C. Because if this is achieved, the growth and development of KOI will be realized in a tremendous way.
    pondtemp.png
    So apparently there are times when the natural water temperature rises to around 24 degrees Celsius for a week or so in the UK these days, don't you think?
    We believe that it is most cost effective and efficient to keep the heating on for at least a month and a half, which can be any time in June or July.
    However, as I have mentioned elsewhere, that time of year is still full of shows, sales and other events that interfere with the intensive feeding period.
    So I suggested that it would be a good idea to avoid this period of inhibition, or to buy KOI at a lower price during the clearance period, so that during the autumn it would be like summer all over again.

    In any case, a feeding period of at least 25°C should be ensured at some point during the year. Once that is achieved, the natural water temperature should be fine. Once the appetite centre has been maximised and the body shape has increased, particularly in the shoulders and back, the KOI will be strong.
    In this way you can stop feeding completely from December to May, as we do, without any problems, and the KOI will grow and develop better the following year.

    I cannot overlook the UK's current vices of overheating in the winter months at extra cost, and forcing KOI to be fed at around 15 degrees Celsius just because they will eat, causing them to become frail and medicated in the spring and early summer with many problems such as flukes.
    If we are going to add heat, we should do it in an appropriate and effective way.
    i agree with a resting period over winter for older fish nisai and above, as do many in the UK.
    but only if the koi has been made strong with intensive feeding during the summer.

    if that opportunity has been missed, the fish will lack the strength to easily survive 5 months with no food.
    and a shorter winter period should be employed, until a full summer of high feeding with heated temperatures has been done.
    also the use of fresh food should not be ignored, with green leafy vegetables and citrus fruit are high in vitamin A,B, and C, to give the koi fresh vitamins.
    as these supplements quickly oxidise in pellet food.

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  7. #24
    Senior Member Rank = Hassai Mike Bass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajm View Post
    Learnt the hard way temp and ph crash was for to much for them last winter . I wouldn't let that happen again. To much heartbrake like .

    Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
    Same here , last spring lost a third of my koi with issues after wide temperature swings & PH crash so only managed to nurse the remaining back to health as I had the ASHP standing by ready for the new pond
    1kGal BD/Skim RDF/UV/k1 2.3kGal 2windows 2airBD/skim Sieve/Eazypod RDFcombi+bakki 3xVP/UV,ASHP

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  9. #25
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion Ajm's Avatar
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    This how your setting your gas heating up like dave

    Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
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    Johnathan

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  11. #26
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajm View Post
    This how your setting your gas heating up like dave

    Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

    thats a cracker,
    nearly as good as the one where they put a heating coil inside a drum... including the pipe with push fit fittings as well

    all up in the air atm, but thinking about an indirect system.

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  13. #27
    Senior Member Rank = Jussai Alburglar's Avatar
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    My IBC tank is pretty vulnerable over winter. I cover it in perspex just to keep the wind out and it's wrapped in that silver foil bubble wrap they use in camper vans (it's pretty crap). The filters and pipes are wrapped in normal bubble wrap. It dropped below 4 and I crapped myself and rigged up a 150w aquarium heater in the filter box via a separate cheap thermostat off eBay. Literally just to hold temps at 4.5 if needed. Works a treat. Never noticed a spike in my bills particularly. I will upscale this on my big pond (bigger titanium heating elements in filter) and hold above 8 until back down to 4.5 Jan and Feb etc until spring then back to 8. I think these will run a lot cheaper than the electro style units. The cloverleaf ones look like they block flow and the thermostats seem very poor.
    This way is like a DIY Pro line system but cost pence.


    Last edited by Alburglar; 07-10-2021 at 02:31 AM.
    2660 Gallons. 4" Bottom Drain and Skimmer. Draco Solum 16 Drum. Anoxic Filtration. Air lift returns.

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  15. #28
    Senior Member Rank = Hassai big h's Avatar
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    If i thought an ASHP was better,all things considered,i would have one.But i do believe that in my instance an Elecro set at 10 is more than adequate.I have a spare Elecro so if the one fitted packed in,i could swap to the spare in 5 mins as its on rubber boots.I know a lot of people have problems with ASHPs freezing up,they still use electricity,granted not as much,but when i worked out initial outlay,i dont think most people will get their money back before the ASHP ineeds to be replaced.IMHO,its all about covers.I actually priced up an LPG boiler fitted with heat coil in the filter room,but when i metered the Elecro,and realised it was only around £26 a month in winter i didnt bother changing .My advice to anybody thats not heated is buy an Elecro ,heat to 6 or 8 degrees and cover the pond.You wont have any bother with fish or pipework .Very small price to pay

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  17. #29
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big h View Post
    If i thought an ASHP was better,all things considered,i would have one.But i do believe that in my instance an Elecro set at 10 is more than adequate.I have a spare Elecro so if the one fitted packed in,i could swap to the spare in 5 mins as its on rubber boots.I know a lot of people have problems with ASHPs freezing up,they still use electricity,granted not as much,but when i worked out initial outlay,i dont think most people will get their money back before the ASHP ineeds to be replaced.IMHO,its all about covers.I actually priced up an LPG boiler fitted with heat coil in the filter room,but when i metered the Elecro,and realised it was only around £26 a month in winter i didnt bother changing .My advice to anybody thats not heated is buy an Elecro ,heat to 6 or 8 degrees and cover the pond.You wont have any bother with fish or pipework .Very small price to pay
    thats a similar situation to me....
    current direct electric heating costs on a 2500 gallon pond well insulated, are now less than ASHP total ownership costs.

    a couple of years ago when ASHP were £1000 new it was more attractive.
    the only way this doesn't work is if they artificially jack the cost of electricity up to force people to go green....
    which is laughable when you consider the global CO2 output of China the USA ect.. v's european countries....
    and Germany output double what most other european counties do...

    Last edited by davethefish1; 07-10-2021 at 10:37 AM.

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  19. #30
    Senior Member Rank = Jussai Alburglar's Avatar
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    I'd rather pay out for solar banks than an ASHP. Offset the winter costs of electric heating.
    2660 Gallons. 4" Bottom Drain and Skimmer. Draco Solum 16 Drum. Anoxic Filtration. Air lift returns.

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  21. #31
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alburglar View Post
    I'd rather pay out for solar banks than an ASHP. Offset the winter costs of electric heating.
    god knows whats going to happen with energy costs next year,
    my current deal is up in march...

    don't think i'm going to be getting anything close to 7p/kWh night rate and 13p/kWh day rate
    time to get a log burner fitted methinks....

  22. #32
    Senior Member Rank = Nanasai Naoki Atsumi's Avatar
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    When I lived in Cheshire, there was a KOI farm that used the heat from the nearby waste incineration plant.
    I was taken by a friend in Doncaster (one of the youngest BKKS members at the time) that Derbyshire had a naturally heated aquarium where KOI were kept.


    And in the west, near Somerset, Bath is famous for its hot springs, isn't it?
    Isn't there a possibility of making KOI ponds or related facility in the UK that could provide hot water without relying on electricity?

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  24. #33
    Senior Member Rank = Mature Champion dbs's Avatar
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    My electric company that had me on 22p went bust, awaiting British Gas to take over my supply bu they won't tell me what the cost will be yet Direct Electric Heating Cost

    Sent from my SM-G998B using Tapatalk

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  26. #34
    13p per kw is dreamland, my 16p pkw deal just ended and the best I can get now is 26p pkw. This means I must rethink my winter temperature setup. I am fully insulated with 35mm polycarbonate and my 10 kw ashp has been in place since 2012 (well worth the investment). I usually heat to 14-15° with 1 feed a day of regular food and 1 month rest in January. Without heat, my pond uses 420w p/h, 10-11 kw per day. With heat, on the coldest winter days it can use 20-25 kw per day. Do the maths and it’s going to be a tidy sum each month.
    My plan now is to keep temperatures between 8 and 10 feeding wheatgerm, with the same I month off, and use the heatpump to support the natural temperature rise throughout early spring. I think the heatpump is best suited to keeping temperature to a safe minimum over winter, and doing what it was originally designed for which is maintaining a higher set temperature during the warmer months.
    Whereas I used to just accept the cost as a part of koikeeping, I do have a budget and I don’t want to have to choose between my wine and my koi, the fish will lose.
    Mark
    19,000 litres
    Nexus 320 with Dracodrum and submersible UV
    Blue Eco 320
    Eazy Pod on skimmer
    Dura+ 10kW Heat Pump
    15 koi

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  28. #35
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naoki Atsumi View Post
    When I lived in Cheshire, there was a KOI farm that used the heat from the nearby waste incineration plant.
    I was taken by a friend in Doncaster (one of the youngest BKKS members at the time) that Derbyshire had a naturally heated aquarium where KOI were kept.


    And in the west, near Somerset, Bath is famous for its hot springs, isn't it?
    Isn't there a possibility of making KOI ponds or related facility in the UK that could provide hot water without relying on electricity?
    the UK is not so volcanically active as japan,
    the only 'ring of fire' we get round here is on a saturday morning after a friday night down the curry house...

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  30. #36
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by balder View Post
    13p per kw is dreamland, my 16p pkw deal just ended and the best I can get now is 26p pkw. This means I must rethink my winter temperature setup. I am fully insulated with 35mm polycarbonate and my 10 kw ashp has been in place since 2012 (well worth the investment). I usually heat to 14-15° with 1 feed a day of regular food and 1 month rest in January. Without heat, my pond uses 420w p/h, 10-11 kw per day. With heat, on the coldest winter days it can use 20-25 kw per day. Do the maths and it’s going to be a tidy sum each month.
    My plan now is to keep temperatures between 8 and 10 feeding wheatgerm, with the same I month off, and use the heatpump to support the natural temperature rise throughout early spring. I think the heatpump is best suited to keeping temperature to a safe minimum over winter, and doing what it was originally designed for which is maintaining a higher set temperature during the warmer months.
    Whereas I used to just accept the cost as a part of koikeeping, I do have a budget and I don’t want to have to choose between my wine and my koi, the fish will lose.
    Mark
    26p/kWh!
    i'm an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis (screwed) next year...

  31. #37
    Senior Member Rank = Mature Champion dbs's Avatar
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    26p does sound like what I will get lumbered with, I am sooooo glad i had my solar installed to offset some of the cost!!, though my battery setup is not working as it should yet it does run the ASHP over night Direct Electric Heating Cost

    Sent from my SM-G998B using Tapatalk

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  33. #38
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    this country is a fool to it's self...
    we only used 1% of our supply from cheap coal fired powerstation last year...
    and now face mountanous domestic costs, and fuel poverty for greener gas powered electricity generation.


    Germany gets over a 3rd of it power from cheap dirty lignite brown coal, the government 'taxes' the coal fired plants (nice extra revenue for the government)
    and is still building enourmous new coal fired power plants!???
    make dirty cheap electric, and be a paragon of 'green' for taxing them, and piling the money up in the governments coffers....
    opened in Datteln in the North Rhine-Westphalia region in 2020....


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  35. #39
    Senior Member Rank = Hassai arceye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davethefish1 View Post
    this country is a fool to it's self...
    we only used 1% of our supply from cheap coal fired powerstation last year...
    and now face mountanous domestic costs, and fuel poverty for greener gas powered electricity generation.


    Germany gets over a 3rd of it power from cheap dirty lignite brown coal, the government 'taxes' the coal fired plants (nice extra revenue for the government)
    and is still building enourmous new coal fired power plants!???
    make dirty cheap electric, and be a paragon of 'green' for taxing them, and piling the money up in the governments coffers....
    opened in Datteln in the North Rhine-Westphalia region in 2020....

    Its a shame that Nuclear has such a bad rap too. Even so it could still have a future as a great energy source but it would seem governments would rather chase wind and solar.

    The biggest failing I think was the decision to go with uranium as the power source, largely driven by the fact it provides plutonium which can be utilised for nuclear weapons. The alternative lies in Thorium which is potentially safe from meltdown and can not be easily weaponised.

    Ah well, until someone decides to get serious about the power we consume I guess those of us on lower incomes are just going to be royally screwed yet again never mind heating a pond, I'll be lucky to heat the house at this rate.

    On the upside, I was reading about Hanako the oldest koi the other day, and one of the reasons they gave for her longevity was the regions long cold winters slowing down the fishes metabolism and so extending the lifespan...

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  37. #40
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion Ajm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arceye View Post
    Its a shame that Nuclear has such a bad rap too. Even so it could still have a future as a great energy source but it would seem governments would rather chase wind and solar.

    The biggest failing I think was the decision to go with uranium as the power source, largely driven by the fact it provides plutonium which can be utilised for nuclear weapons. The alternative lies in Thorium which is potentially safe from meltdown and can not be easily weaponised.

    Ah well, until someone decides to get serious about the power we consume I guess those of us on lower incomes are just going to be royally screwed yet again never mind heating a pond, I'll be lucky to heat the house at this rate.

    On the upside, I was reading about Hanako the oldest koi the other day, and one of the reasons they gave for her longevity was the regions long cold winters slowing down the fishes metabolism and so extending the lifespan...
    Well that's just opened the flood gates for our fellow Japanese member to start up again. Lol


    But nuclear could be the way to me like. But then am fascinated by the Chernobyl disaster would love to visit wife thinks am stupid lol

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    "we are water keepers first"

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