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Thread: Best Breeder for Best variety.
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17-01-2021, 04:02 PM #1
Best Breeder for Best variety.
I saw someone mentioning a post for about quality of breeders such a Jap/Israeli/English and it gave me the idea to see what everyones opinions are for breeders per variety. Maybe we could create a list of as many Varieties as possible with peoples opinions of the best breeders which could come in handy when someone is looking to add to their pond and make the post a Sticky if we get enough feedback?So I will start with these and please add too it:
Showa: Isa, Dainichi
Kohaku: Sakai, Momotaro
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17-01-2021, 04:12 PM #2
Yamabuki Ogon - Izumyia
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17-01-2021, 04:14 PM #3
Hi Utsuri - Shinoda, Marusei
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17-01-2021, 04:26 PM #4
Shiro Utsuri - Omosako
Chagoi - Marudo, Marusei, Sakai
Doitsu Metallic Ochiba - Yoshikigoi Koi Farm, Kase
Kirin - Wada!
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17-01-2021, 04:36 PM #5
Showa: Isa, Dainichi
Kohaku: Sakai, Momotaro
Yamabuki Ogon - Izumyia
Hi Utsuri - Shinoda, Marusei
Shiro Utsuri - Omosako
Chagoi - Marudo, Marusei, Sakai
Doitsu Metallic Ochiba - Yoshikigoi Koi Farm, Kase
Kirin - Wada!
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Ajm Thanked / Liked this Post
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17-01-2021, 05:05 PM #6
It is impossible to equate the huge industrial breeders like SAKAI and MOMOTARO with the personal level breeders.
If you want to talk about symbolic, whether it is the best or not...
GOSHIKI/HIROI(YOZEN),・KANNO・MINUMA
AIGOROMO /SAKAZUME(SAKUBEI)
https://youtu.be/Lm01GVtsGPo
ASAGI /HOSOKAI・OTSUKA(MONBEI)
https://youtu.be/xSCpnCrVcAY
SHUSUI /YAMAJYU
GINRIN /TERADOMARI
PLATINUM/CHOGORO(YAMACHO)
KUJAKU/KANEKO・OMOSAKO
KARASHIGOI /KONISHI
DOITSU SHOWA/HIROI(YOZEN),・SHINODA(USHIZO)・MIYATORALast edited by Naoki Atsumi; 24-01-2021 at 02:47 AM.
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17-01-2021, 05:48 PM #7
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Ajm Thanked / Liked this Post
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17-01-2021, 07:26 PM #8
Add Matsue for Kohaku.
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17-01-2021, 07:27 PM #9
Goshiki - Kanno
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17-01-2021, 09:31 PM #10
Showa: Isa, Dainichi
Kohaku: Sakai, Momotaro, Matsue
Yamabuki Ogon - Izumyia
Hi Utsuri - Shinoda, Marusei
Shiro Utsuri - Omosako
Chagoi - Marudo, Marusei, Sakai
Doitsu Metallic Ochiba - Yoshikigoi Koi Farm, Kase
Kirin - Wada!
Goshiki - Kanno
Asagi - Oya
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17-01-2021, 09:56 PM #11
Like the idea of a sticky of this mate. I know nowt about the fish I have a pond full of mutts but after typing fish and breeds in its opening my eyes to what a proper koi looks like
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"we are water keepers first"
Johnathan
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Wain Thanked / Liked this Post
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17-01-2021, 11:25 PM #12
What do you think of SANKE?
What's symbolic and what's available?
MATSUNOSUKE is a lineage that can only be told by making it big, isn't it?
Does that mean that you're like SHINTARO, famous abroad?
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18-01-2021, 01:07 AM #13
Doitsu Showa - Hiroi, Shinoda
Sanke - Sakai
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18-01-2021, 12:45 PM #14
Showa: Isa, Dainichi
Kohaku: Sakai, Momotaro, Matsue
Yamabuki Ogon - Izumyia
Hi Utsuri - Shinoda, Marusei
Shiro Utsuri - Omosako
Chagoi - Marudo, Marusei, Sakai
Doitsu Metallic Ochiba - Yoshikigoi Koi Farm, Kase
Kirin - Wada!
Goshiki - Kanno
Asagi - Oya
Doitsu Showa - Hiroi, Shinoda
Sanke - Sakai, Momotaro
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18-01-2021, 05:13 PM #15
How about Maruhiro for ki Utsuri?
I know there were a number of decent ki Utsuri from them last year, but wasn't sure if they are renowned for this, or whether it was just a good year for them?
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18-01-2021, 07:54 PM #16
One point that should be taken into consideration when talking about these breeders is the route and process of how they acquired their OYAGOI(parent KOI). In other words, in breeding KOI, the goal is always to obtain the next generation of OYAGOI, and the blood from other sources is only a supplement. It is a bit of a long story, but SAKAI in Hiroshima is also classified as a late breeder compared to the traditional farmers in Niigata. It took at least 3 generations, and on average about 5 generations, to establish the original SAKAI KOHAKU breed, based on the SENSUKE bloodline that originated in Niigata and spread to western Japan, with the addition of DAINICHI and OGAWA bloodlines. So breeders outside of Japan are still in the process and have only just begun, and in my lifetime I think we will finally see signs of this direction. This is the reason why OMOSAKO has an unshakable position in the field of SHIROUTSURI, and every few years a new breeder appears, such as MORIYA from NAGANO, SEKI and OYA YAMANAKA from NIGATA,, KURIHARA from SAITAMA, etc. But after 5 to 10 years, the breeders are replaced by different breeders, because they cannot establish the bloodline and if the original parents die, the breeding ends at that point. This is an aside, but OMOSAKO's first parents came from SAKAI, just as SHIROUTSURI was a by-product of SHOWA, just as BEKKO was a by-product of SANKE, and SAKAI's predecessor was the first to establish SHIROUTSURI as an independent breed. There used to be a lot of SHIROUTSURI in SAKAI, but we don't see them nowadays, do we? So it can be said that OMOSAKO's SHIROUTSURI inherited and developed from SAKAI's SHIROUTSURI, and finally surpassed it.
Last edited by Naoki Atsumi; 18-01-2021 at 08:13 PM.
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18-01-2021, 11:46 PM #17
That is interesting Naoki.
Although I guess the spirit of this thread is more to get an idea if koi at the cheaper end of the price scale might be a better prospect if bred by someone who consistently produces quality koi of a particular variety.
Appreciate there are always surprises though. I wanted a Sekuguchi Showa but couldn't bring myself to pay the kind of money they sell for, so I bought a Kase Showa that he'd bred from Sekuguchi parents.
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19-01-2021, 12:03 AM #18
I see what you mean. I am only guessing, but SEKIGUCHI is one of the most unique breeders in Japan. They have been around for a long time, and it seems that their management policy is the same even in their son's generation. Perhaps they are more friendly to Japanese hobbyists and negative about exporting abroad? They were known for their aggressive sales of excellent KOIs in TOSAI, which is not the case with other breeders. In fact, every few years, a hobbyist with excellent rearing skills would produce an excellent result, and this is what made the SEKIGUCHI name known to the KOI society. Unfortunately, for now, exporting to other countries means the end of a one-way street. Even if we take the trouble to bring the promising KOI to the market early, you don't have the skill and clear intentions to make it better, so he is reluctant to advertise it.
Last edited by Naoki Atsumi; 19-01-2021 at 01:48 AM.
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19-01-2021, 12:40 AM #19
To add to this, in my day there were several breeders in NIGATA, mainly in the HIROKAMI area, who specialised in TOSAI and did not have the facilities to raise more than 2 sai. They may have been defeated by price competition from western Japan's Sakai's second crop (Trial combinations to be crossed after summer, or just for the sake of selling the pattern), or the new Indonesian breeds. It seems that SEKI, YAMANAKA OYA and KURIHARA which I touched earlier were positively sold also to foreign countries about ten years ago when I searched by UTSURI and YouTube after the name. But I can't find the name of MORIYA. If MORIYA's SHIROUTSURI existed today, it might have exploded in popularity overseas. I know of one year when SAKAI, OMOSAKO and MORIYA's SHIROUTSURI took the top prizes at the All Japan KOI Show. It was natural, because until then, SHIROUTSURI was just a collection of defective products of SHOWA. And SAKAI and OMOSAKO monopolized the large ones, while MORIYA monopolized the small and medium ones. Because from a young age MORIYA's SHIROUTSURI were colour coded with a textbook UTSURI pattern of clear white and pitch black SUMI. There is no doubt that OMOSAKO's SHIROUTSURI is the best of its kind today. The only complaint I have is that there are too many eternally TATEGOI and that it is impossible to distinguish between them. If foreign breeders are going to produce SHIROUTSURI, I hope they will take MORIYA as a reference instead of OMOSAKO. If I have time I will try to find some pictures of MORIYA from those days and show them to you.
In recent years, SHIROUTSURI by places like MARUSEN KOBAYASHI and NND seems to be popular in Europe. But MORIYA had more shiny and real jet black SUMI. Am I misremembering because I have a fantasy about old things?Last edited by Naoki Atsumi; 19-01-2021 at 10:14 AM.
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19-01-2021, 10:15 AM #20
Thank you for the insight Naoki. It is interested to see everything from a Japanese perspective as we only see what arrives in England really and I would imagine when most people do the koi trips to Japan they only see the breeders which export to England so don't get to see these smaller breeders.Do you have any photos of any of the smaller breeders? We do getSekiguchi koi here.
Last edited by samp09; 19-01-2021 at 10:19 AM.
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