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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Manky Sanke View Post
    I think your anoxic system is doing quite well and I can run some calculations if I can confirm some numbers to make sure I understand correctly.

    Your pond volume is 2,000 litres and you trickle in 200 ml per minute.
    Your pond is 10 mg/L and the tap water is 40 mg/L.

    If that’s correct, can you tell me what is the protein content of the food and can you estimate how many grams you feed per week in total?
    Ok so the summer food is 48% protein.
    On average I would feed between 200-230g per week (judged on weight of each handful).
    The NO3 in tap is at 40ppm and current pond value is 10ppm.

    But currently I feed winter food which is 20% protein and only about 20g every two days (as long as temperature is above 10C).

    I have 25 large anoxic baskets running since March/April time.

    Hopefully that helps?

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  2. #22
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion Mikeh83's Avatar
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    Am I correct in my thinking that anoxic does not remove nitrate.

    My understanding was It simply just removes the nitrogen cycle so ammonia is not converted but is neutralised and therefore no nitrate is added but if you are adding source water at 40ppm then this will not be removed by the anoxic


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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  4. #23
    I have everything I need, except time , and I'll get back to you as soon as I finish the two urgent calculator bashing processes I'm already trying to do simultaneously.

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  6. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Manky Sanke View Post
    I have everything I need, except time , and I'll get back to you as soon as I finish the two urgent calculator bashing processes I'm already trying to do simultaneously.
    No rush at all! Thank you for your help

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

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  8. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikeh83 View Post
    Am I correct in my thinking that anoxic does not remove nitrate.

    My understanding was It simply just removes the nitrogen cycle so ammonia is not converted but is neutralised and therefore no nitrate is added but if you are adding source water at 40ppm then this will not be removed by the anoxic


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Looking at information shared by Dr Novak as well as Manky Sanke, anoxic is able to reduce nitrates.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

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  10. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikeh83 View Post
    Am I correct in my thinking that anoxic does not remove nitrate.

    My understanding was It simply just removes the nitrogen cycle so ammonia is not converted but is neutralised and therefore no nitrate is added but if you are adding source water at 40ppm then this will not be removed by the anoxic


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Mike, as I've just said, I'm very busy but I'll dash off this reply quickly. Anoxic mainly avoids creating nitrate by directly destroying ammonia molecules but it also has the capacity to reduce nitrate created elsewhere as long as it isn't being swamped. More later.

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  12. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Flowerska View Post
    Ok so the summer food is 48% protein.
    On average I would feed between 200-230g per week (judged on weight of each handful).
    The NO3 in tap is at 40ppm and current pond value is 10ppm.

    But currently I feed winter food which is 20% protein and only about 20g every two days (as long as temperature is above 10C).

    I have 25 large anoxic baskets running since March/April time.

    Hopefully that helps?

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
    Sorry to have kept you waiting. I've given my calculator another hammering and these are the results:

    The current feed rate (70 grams of 20% protein food per week) adds 0.7 mg/L nitrate to your pond per week.
    The summer feed rate (200 - 230 grams of 48% protein) adds an average of 5.2 mg/L nitrate to your pond per week.

    That's fairly typical and doesn't sound too bad but your trickle feed (0.2 L/min with 40 mg/L nitrate) also adds 40.32 mg/L to your pond per week. I.e. a total of approximately 41 mg/L in winter and 45 mg/L in summer.

    If the anoxic system manages to reduce all that nitrate to 10 mg/L, I would say it's performing quite well.
    Last edited by Manky Sanke; 04-11-2020 at 07:56 PM.

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  14. #28
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Interesting post Syd, thank you for posting.

    My nitrates have been elevated but as you know I still have a moving bed in addition to 23 anoxic baskets.

    Using your calculations as a base, I am adding roughly 6.25 mg/l nitrates weekly, plus whatever my moving bed is adding on top.

    Nitrates seem to have hit a ceiling at 40 mg/l and haven't increased despite minimal water changes and no trickle.

    Could be an indication that I'm asking too much from Anoxic as opposed to my consideration that it was no longer performing properly.

    200 grams of 51% protein food a day through summer is likely a key factor!





    Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk

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  16. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Manky Sanke View Post
    Sorry to have kept you waiting. I've given my calculator another hammering and these are the results:

    The current feed rate (70 grams of 20% protein food per week) adds 0.7 mg/L nitrate to your pond per week.
    The summer feed rate (200 - 230 grams of 48% protein) adds an average of 5.2 mg/L nitrate to your pond per week.

    That's fairly typical and doesn't sound too bad but your trickle feed (0.2 L/min with 40 mg/L nitrate) also adds 40.32 mg/L to your pond per week. I.e. a total of approximately 41 mg/L in winter and 45 mg/L in summer.

    If the anoxic system manages to reduce all that nitrate to 10 mg/L, I would say it's performing quite well.
    No need to apologize and thank you so much!
    I really appreciate you spending time to work it out for me.
    So am I understanding it right?
    If anoxic is mature it can process both ammonia and nitrates (to some level).
    But if there is no ammonia present for few weeks, will the anoxic continue to remove nitrates? Is there a time limit where ammonia must be re-introduced?
    Also is the bigger the anoxic, the better it is at processing nitrates true? I thought my anoxic is an overkill for the small fish I have but it seems to work better than expected.



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  17. #30
    Senior Member Rank = Hassai Wain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frimley Koi keeper View Post
    Sorry your username didn't make that obvious

    10 ppm in the pond is pretty good though

    pmsl how many blokes do you know called FLOWER



    mmm get you Frim . . big boy pmsl
    1000 gal
    2 x Hozelock 6000ltr 9W UV
    Allpond Spin Filter 8000 11W UV
    Blagdon pond oxy 640 ltr/hr

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  19. #31
    Senior Member Rank = Hassai Wain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frimley Koi keeper View Post
    So in old money that's about 11ft x 6ft x 4ft right?

    Well if you look up Frimley on a map and not Firmley LOL you'll see it's not far from the Surrey Hampshire Berkshire border or junction 3 and 4 of the M3 so probably an hour from you?

    Is Swindon where they have the Magic Round about?

    Hahaha a dating site now F I R M pmsl
    1000 gal
    2 x Hozelock 6000ltr 9W UV
    Allpond Spin Filter 8000 11W UV
    Blagdon pond oxy 640 ltr/hr

  20. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Frimley Koi keeper View Post
    So in old money that's about 11ft x 6ft x 4ft right?

    Well if you look up Frimley on a map and not Firmley LOL you'll see it's not far from the Surrey Hampshire Berkshire border or junction 3 and 4 of the M3 so probably an hour from you?

    Is Swindon where they have the Magic Round about?
    Yes I believe so that is the right size

    And yes, but there is nothing magic about the roundabout. Unless you would count people being still confused about how to drive on it as some kind of powerful charm High nitrates and anoxic filtration

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

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  22. #33
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Frimley Koi keeper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wain View Post
    pmsl how many blokes do you know called FLOWER



    mmm get you Frim . . big boy pmsl
    I bet there are plenty in Brighton or Rotherham.

    Could have been a surname like Tim Flowers the footballer

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  24. #34
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Frimley Koi keeper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flowerska View Post
    Yes I believe so that is the right size

    And yes, but there is nothing magic about the roundabout. Unless you would count people being still confused about how to drive on it as some kind of powerful charm High nitrates and anoxic filtration

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
    Lol I've been across it a couple of times and it seemed like people were coming at you from all angles

  25. #35
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Frimley Koi keeper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wain View Post
    Hahaha a dating site now F I R M pmsl
    Don't know so I'll have to take your word for that Wain

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  27. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    Interesting post Syd, thank you for posting.

    My nitrates have been elevated but as you know I still have a moving bed in addition to 23 anoxic baskets.

    Using your calculations as a base, I am adding roughly 6.25 mg/l nitrates weekly, plus whatever my moving bed is adding on top.

    Nitrates seem to have hit a ceiling at 40 mg/l and haven't increased despite minimal water changes and no trickle.

    Could be an indication that I'm asking too much from Anoxic as opposed to my consideration that it was no longer performing properly.

    200 grams of 51% protein food a day through summer is likely a key factor!

    Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk
    Yes, the moving bed is the problem. If all the ammonia from the fish went into the moving bed, it would make 10,200 mg of nitrate per day. If it all went into the anoxic filter, it would make 0 mg of nitrate. So, assuming the anoxic is getting half of of the ammonia that the fish produce, you are adding 5,100 mg of nitrate per day into the pond.

    If the anoxic filter is reducing all that nitrate to just 40 mg/L without significant water changes then it's performing quite well.

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  29. #37
    To keep it simple, I've threaded my answers below:

    Quote Originally Posted by Flowerska View Post
    No need to apologize and thank you so much!
    I really appreciate you spending time to work it out for me.
    So am I understanding it right?

    If anoxic is mature it can process both ammonia and nitrates (to some level).
    Yes it will destroy ammonia without leaving any nitrate and it's also quite effective at reducing nitrate produced elsewhere in the pond provided it isn't being swamped with the huge amount of nitrate that a conventional system makes when the two systems are put in competition. However, that said. it's doing a very good job with your high nitrate supply and Steve's (RS2000) combination as above.

    But if there is no ammonia present for few weeks, will the anoxic continue to remove nitrates?
    Yes.

    Is there a time limit where ammonia must be re-introduced?
    If the facultative bugs in the basket (or the aerobic bugs in a conventional biofilter) are deprived of ammonia for several weeks, they won't die out completely but the colony will slowly begin to become dormant.

    Also is the bigger the anoxic, the better it is at processing nitrates true?
    Yes.

    I thought my anoxic is an overkill for the small fish I have but it seems to work better than expected.
    Yes, assuming the anoxic system is installed correctly, it really works. Kevin Novak spent years studying the microbiology and metabolism of the facultative anaerobes then perfecting the design to make it effective and simple to construct before he introduced it to the hobby. For my part, after reading his CD book and getting to grips with the biochemistry in the baskets, in c2008, I spent nearly a year with a test anoxic pond, testing every conceivable parameter, including the oxygen gradient in the baskets. I wasn't trying to prove him wrong, I did it in order to give us some independently produced scientific data so we could combat the negative comments from a host of people at that time who obviously didn't understand how it worked but were very vocal with their theories trying to prove it wouldn't work.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

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  31. #38
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manky Sanke View Post
    Yes, the moving bed is the problem. If all the ammonia from the fish went into the moving bed, it would make 10,200 mg of nitrate per day. If it all went into the anoxic filter, it would make 0 mg of nitrate. So, assuming the anoxic is getting half of of the ammonia that the fish produce, you are adding 5,100 mg of nitrate per day into the pond.

    If the anoxic filter is reducing all that nitrate to just 40 mg/L without significant water changes then it's performing quite well.

    In reality the anoxic filter will be getting less than half the ammonia available to process;


    • Drum filtered water goes through the moving bed before it gets to the anoxic.
    • The return from moving bed takes 50% of water through the anoxic (so as to slow water movement through anoxic pond) and 50% directly to the pond (12,000 lph total).


    You may wonder why I've not gotten rid of the moving bed, and in fact I've added to it. This is because of ongoing low levels of ammonia (0.1 to 0.25) throughout the summer, probably linked to the high protein food. Thus I didn't have the confidence to switch off the moving bed.

  32. #39
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Frimley Koi keeper's Avatar
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    If I'm reading this correctly which I'm probably not!!!

    The anoxic filter is capable of removing Nitrates from a conventional filter system to a degree OK?

    If that's the case then why not just build a bigger anoxic if running in on a pond that has a conventional filter system? Say 1.5 or 2 baskets for each fish? Obviously you need to have the space for the extra baskets?

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  34. #40
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    It's all about space Frim, and the fact not many people build their pond with an Anoxic filter from the outset, it's usually something you discover later on and have to retrofit into available space.

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