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Thread: Auto Top Up

  1. #21
    Senior Member Rank = Rokusai Ruffers22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feline View Post
    I think the ideal place to run your trickle in is after the filters, but appreciate this might be difficult in some setups. I have the RO and trickle pipes going into the very bottom of my shower, so it goes straight to the pond.

    Apart from this being a convenient place to stick the pipes, my reasons were:

    - If any chlorine did accidentally pass, it wouldn’t go into any bio media, but instead would get immediately diluted by the whole pond volume
    - I don’t want to dilute water passing through the filters with clean freshly added water with nothing in it for the bio bugs to use

    As you’ve said, adding it into the top up box with overflow in it would not make sense. You want to change actual pond water when it overflows, not freshly added water. Any other place would do though really.

    I did read something in a thread about the possible pitfalls of fitting a trickle-in directly into the filters.
    There is obviously the potential of harming bio bacteria if the water entering contains any chlorine due to a failed or expended inline chlorine filter.

    So fitting the trickle in at a bakki shower makes sense, as the water in is returning directly to the pond and so will lesson the effect of any chlorine on the bio filter?
    Would you return at the bottom tier so the water misses all the shower media? or at the top to help gas off any minor amount of chlorine and risk damaging the bacteria in media in the shower?

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  3. #22
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion Mikeh83's Avatar
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    Auto Top Up

    Where did you get this auto top up solution [mention]Ruffers22 [/mention]


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  5. #23
    Senior Member Rank = Rokusai Ruffers22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikeh83 View Post
    Where did you get this auto top up solution [mention]Ruffers22 [/mention]


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    Hi Mate,

    The top up & overflow box came with the EZpond kit, but I found this place which does the same one and also one with out the float valve/top up . (which I don't use anyway)

    https://www.altaquatics.co.uk/acatal...Equipment.html

    I just use mine as an overflow/trickle out point, then have my trickle in piped directly from the de-chlorinator into the Bakki bottom tray.
    Seems to work a treat.
    There is no dead end pipe and the water in the overflow box is constantly being replaced via the unused inlet side of the drum.
    EZ-pond 1200i Semi-Raised Pond, Spin-drifter BD, Oase Aquaskim, Oase Proficlear Compact Gravity, 1x Bermuda 10,000, 1x Evo-Aqua 20,000 Vari Wi-fi Pumps, 2x Evo-Aqua 70L Air Pumps , Evo-Aqua 55w UV, Aqua-Sieve Midi, 3 Tier Fabricated Stainless Shower, Hydro-Pro Z7 Heat Pump, 48" Big Blue De-chlorinator, Profi Auto Feeder & Seneye Pond Pack.
    "That'll do pig. That'll do"

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  7. #24
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion Mikeh83's Avatar
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    Nice one thanks for sharing. That has some serious koi tax on it Auto Top Up I may see if I can make something similar.


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  9. #25
    Senior Member Rank = Rokusai Ruffers22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikeh83 View Post
    Nice one thanks for sharing. That has some serious koi tax on it Auto Top Up I may see if I can make something similar.


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    You could probably go full Blue Peter and make one out of a good old Tupperware container

    I think the one without the float valve isn't so bad at £38.00 but the extra £32.00 does seem a bit steep to say the least.
    EZ-pond 1200i Semi-Raised Pond, Spin-drifter BD, Oase Aquaskim, Oase Proficlear Compact Gravity, 1x Bermuda 10,000, 1x Evo-Aqua 20,000 Vari Wi-fi Pumps, 2x Evo-Aqua 70L Air Pumps , Evo-Aqua 55w UV, Aqua-Sieve Midi, 3 Tier Fabricated Stainless Shower, Hydro-Pro Z7 Heat Pump, 48" Big Blue De-chlorinator, Profi Auto Feeder & Seneye Pond Pack.
    "That'll do pig. That'll do"

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  11. #26
    Senior Member Rank = Rokusai JimJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruffers22 View Post
    Hi Mate,

    The top up & overflow box came with the EZpond kit, but I found this place which does the same one and also one with out the float valve/top up . (which I don't use anyway)

    https://www.altaquatics.co.uk/acatal...Equipment.html

    I just use mine as an overflow/trickle out point, then have my trickle in piped directly from the de-chlorinator into the Bakki bottom tray.
    Seems to work a treat.
    There is no dead end pipe and the water in the overflow box is constantly being replaced via the unused inlet side of the drum.

    wow all that kit is a 9 pounds screwfix toilet overflow in a box ! 70 quid !

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  13. #27
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion Mikeh83's Avatar
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    Pretty much haha.. I like it as a neat solution but £70 is just a rip off


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  15. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruffers22 View Post
    I did read something in a thread about the possible pitfalls of fitting a trickle-in directly into the filters.
    There is obviously the potential of harming bio bacteria if the water entering contains any chlorine due to a failed or expended inline chlorine filter.

    So fitting the trickle in at a bakki shower makes sense, as the water in is returning directly to the pond and so will lesson the effect of any chlorine on the bio filter?
    Would you return at the bottom tier so the water misses all the shower media? or at the top to help gas off any minor amount of chlorine and risk damaging the bacteria in media in the shower?
    My pipes are stuck into the bottom tray so their ends are beneath the media. Gassing off is not a ‘thing’ where chloramine is concerned, and would not want to kill the biofilm in the shower media in any case. Any media that sat immediately below the trickle in would have no ‘food’ to feed a biofilm either, so would be a waste of media potential too IMO.

  16. #29
    Moderator Rank = Supreme Champion Feline's Avatar
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    I do agree with the above also, that if you want a ball valve controlled top up, it’s extremely easy to fit one to pretty much anything you have.

    I do this when I make chicken drinkers for my flock, and also the dog bowl which I keep outside because my dog is a messy drinker and likes to bathe in his water bowl if it’s on the floor
    The plastic ball valves I buy on eBay are very very cheap, and can directly screw on a hozelock attachment to them.

    This is what my dog does in any body of water he can find no matter how small!
    IMG_3246 by Lara Day, on Flickr
    Last edited by Feline; 18-11-2020 at 07:41 PM.

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  18. #30
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion Mikeh83's Avatar
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    Haha cute


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  20. #31
    All of my ponds have had some type of auto-top up.

    My latest is the first pond to have a self cleaning drum filter and the drum screen washing uses pond water. This means a regular amount of pond water going to waste.
    I could just set up a constant trickle and overflow, but with this being my first pond on a water meter I decided to go for a top up system which only replaces what is lost and no more.
    So far I have been lucky with NO3 levels.

    This is more of an automatic level control rather than just a top up. Water level stays constant within a couple of mm.
    They key points that made it work properly for me are:
    1. A separate small height adjustable cistern with equilibrium type float valve and overflow weir (can be seen under the blue dechlorinator in the picture).
    2. The cistern is connected to the pond directly (40mm hose) and so is unaffected by level fluctuations always found in filters. This is vital.
    3. Top up water does not go into the cistern as this would in turn interfere with the "local" level. Top up water from the valve is instead directed through a dechlorinator and into the filter outlet stage.


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  22. #32
    That's fantastic. I use a float valve in the top of the filter but it's temperamental and requires regular adjusting. It also puts water directly into the bio chamber which isn't ideal.

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  24. #33
    Senior Member Rank = Mature Champion dbs's Avatar
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    Damn that is good, would love to set up mine for that !!

    Really well thought out

  25. #34
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai Stephen01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruffers22 View Post
    Hi All,

    Has anyone ever fitted one of these auto top ups?

    Attachment 34589

    I have one and was wondering where I can plumb this in on my setup?

    My pond has 4" bottom drain supplying an Oase Proficlear Compact on one return and also an Oase Aquaskim supplying a Aquaforte Mini Sieve which has a split return to pond and a bakki shower.

    Could I fit this on the sieve inlet chamber side? As it would provide the easiest solution for me to access pond level for equalisation and also for overflow to waste. Its also close to where my water supply and de-chlorinator are.

    Would the pond level / equalization work if plumbed into the sieve inlet chamber?
    Obviously when the sieve is running the inlet chamber water level drops lower than actual pond level due to the pump draw? and so the the auto top up would be constantly trying to then top up? Or is it just a case of adjusting the auto top up to the water level when the sieve is running ?

    Or is it a complete non starter?
    That’s a torbec system float switch, I had one fitted and it’s a great piece of kit, I had the brass fitting for strength tho.. the box it’s fitted into looks like a great addition to the set up.


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  26. #35
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion Mikeh83's Avatar
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    Nice set up there Auto Top Up only downside I can think of is a lack of movement of water would lead to the water going bad and a harvest ground for nasties


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  27. #36
    Controlling pond water level – some thoughts.

    1. Manual top up. The method used in the majority of UK ponds. If it looks a bit low get out the hosepipe.
    This method is also still used in many fish ponds. The water may be run through a dechlorinator or not, a dechlorinated product may be added to the water or not.
    This may be fine if you check water level all the time, don’t go away on long holidays, have very low stocking levels, “disposable” fish and your filter (if you have one) isn’t affected by varying pond water levels.

    2. Trickle in. A permanent trickle of water into the system (I will assume dechlorinators will be used in all methods from here on) which is adjusted by the user. Should also incorporate an overflow.
    Advantages:

    • Easy to install because water level sensing isn’t needed. Whatever filter system you use this will fit in because you can trickle in anywhere.
    • Good pond level control during normal operations (but only if the overflow is in the right place).
    • Constant water change which usually keeps NO3 under control.

    Disadvantages:

    • Higher water bills.
    • Still needs user intervention if larger water changes, flushes or similar take place.
    • Overflow is principle method of determining pond level so its positioning is critical


    2.Auto top up
    . To me this means a water level sensor of some type which approximately detects water level in the pond, but actually senses the level where it is placed (usually in the filter) and can automatically control flow rate of water into system. Again an overflow should exist somewhere.
    Advantages:

    • Only adds water as needed to reduce water bills.
    • Can automatically vary flow to suit amount of top up required (usually a mechanical valve, but I have designed systems using two electrical float switches with varied fill rate to suit).

    Disadvantages:

    • “Where it is placed”. Any sensor/float valve installed in any part of your filter system, including intake/outlet will sense the level where it is placed which will not be the same as the level in the pond itself. Consequently, although this method is fine for making sure levels don’t drop too low it is less suitable for maintaining an exact pond level. Even if you allow for level difference, the level in any filter will fluctuate depending on flow rate, valve openings, etc.
    • Won’t be any good if you have a pump submerged in the pond pumping water to a raise filter.

    If you do place a sensor/float valve in part of your filter that has a gravity component it is best placed in the inlet. If the flow stops the level will rise and shut off the water supply. If it’s in an outlet (higher than pond level) and flow stops, the level will drop and the water will run into your pond and overfill it.

    3. Auto pond level control. To me this is not the same as auto top up found in many systems. My take on auto level control is that it maintains an exact pond level whatever is happening or not happening in your filter and whatever type of filter you have.
    Advantages:

    • Automatically maintains perfect pond level at all times.
    • Again only users water as required.

    Disadvantages:

    • Harder to retrofit.


    This is how I did it.

    • A dedicated pipe connects to the pond (not the filter or inlet or outlet). I used 40mm hose (110mm is pointless in this application).
    • The pipe is connected to a small cistern containing an equilibrium float valve (not all float valves are the same and some cistern flush valves will not respond to small drops in water level). The water level in the cistern is exact pond level.
    • The cistern also as a small weir added to one side for an overflow. Water will flow from pond to overflow, but never back to pond on fill avoiding introducing stale water.
    • The water outlet of the valve is fixed to a pipe which avoids water being added to the cistern directly (would interfere with the level and induce a negative feedback loop) and allows water to be added to the system (through a dechlorinator) to the pond return – which is where I would always add the water. This is because the water is in turbulent flow and will be well mixed and distributed through the pond. Very important if your dechlorinator is nearing the end of its working life!
    • The cistern – being separate to other systems can be easily adjusted up and down (as can the float valve) to suit.



    Here is a picture of my set up (shown earlier in this thread, but here with the lid removed. The mounting bolts are in slots to allow overall adjustment and the stainless washers are for fine tuning.

    I hope this of use - please note this is my take on the topic and is not intended to be definitive or contradict other views.

    Last edited by Ukzero; 21-11-2020 at 11:53 AM.

  28. #37
    Moderator Rank = Supreme Champion Feline's Avatar
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    If you’re serious bout keeping koi then you will need to either change lots of water, or run an anoxic filter. Saving water is therefore not really a thing ��

    Trickle in and overflow out is therefore the most popular method in serious koi ponds- and those of us who use clean side water to run the drum spray bar are using that as part of our water change, so we set our trickle in level to always be above drum consumption anyway.

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  30. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Feline View Post
    Saving water is therefore not really a thing
    My drum filter also uses clean side water to spray the screens and even without "excess trickle in" that still equates to 32m3 in 12 months - all to replace drum rinse water and some evaporation and drinking by our cat and every bl@#dy pigeon in the area.
    I have an ex waterboard digital meter fitted into the pond supply so this figure is accurate - a lot of the cheap mechanical ones on Ebay and the like are very inaccurate at low flow rates.
    This equates to about 5% system volume per week on average, but given that the drum self cleans very rarely over Winter, the percentage change rate will be much higher in the Summer when the pond is more active and the drum cleans much more often.
    So, when NO3 production is high the drum also rinses more often with new water entering the system and vice versa, so it is self regulating to a degree.
    I could easily adjust my level system to add a degree of extra trickle by lowering the cistern until the set level was just above the overflow weir - so it would run constantly, just faster if the level dropped.
    The result of me trying not to use excess water (or enough water depending on your standpoint) was a highest NO3 reading of 50ppm towards the end of the Summer.

    I completely get that trickle in is the most popular method in serious koi ponds and that in such a system intervention is reduced by maintaining "trickle in should exceed rinse out" (by the way, Feline, just followed your link and must congratulate you on what is a seriously impressive serious koi pond!! ).
    I had less "freedom" in that it ours had to look like an ornamental pond that just happened to contain koi - if you get my drift.

    As I said I was just exploring ideas.

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  32. #39
    Moderator Rank = Supreme Champion Feline's Avatar
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    It’s not just about the nitrate though. There are many solutes that accumulate over time in your water of you don’t change enough- DOCs including pheromones will suppress females dropping their eggs leading to issues for them, and also will inhibit growth of fish to their max potential. Keeping TDS levels down to source water levels is what many people are aiming for, and this usually necessitates changing at least 10% per week in winter and 25% or so per week in summer.

    For the past couple of years alive been running recycling RO which has saved me water compared to running ordinary RO. I still need to trickle in water though to replace drum losses and also to replace the RO waste. Using this system you can actually use less than 25% water change overall and yet achieve a low TDS and remove unwanted hormones etc. and nitrate, phosphate from the water at the same time.

    If you’re interested in recycling RO as a means of saving water then I can highly recommend watching Chip’s YouTube channel as Andy Finch (who’s system I originally copied) recently installed it on Chip’s pond and has set up in business selling all the kit and complete systems. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...uojiHOlHpw6ldg

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  34. #40
    This is very interesting.
    Thanks for the additional info Feline

    I did briefly look at RO and wondered about the possibility of treating pond water rather than just incoming tap water, but didn't realise anyone had cracked that one during my planning stage. Kudos to that man!
    I'm not on social media and couldn't find any indication of the cost of such a system on the general web, but imagine it won't be cheap.

    I did design my filter system to be flexible between the fluidised bed media section and the outlet chamber to allow for updates/changes. It currently has a bakki element filled with BHM, but it would be a (relatively) simple operation to modifiy it to an anoxic set up for example without too much of an impact on the conventional Nitrogen cyle processe. Is there a market for used BHM I wonder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Feline View Post
    If you’re serious bout keeping koi then you will need to either change lots of water, or run an anoxic filter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Feline View Post
    There are many solutes that accumulate over time in your water of you don’t change enough (Water).
    Like many I have read Syd's pages on Anoxic filtration (multiple times) and find it a fascinating prospect. I have to say Syd's explanation is excellent, because he manages to simplify complex chemistry into easy to understand concepts which is a rare talent (I used to teach a little chemistry and know enough to know how complex apparently simple processes like photosynthesis actually are, so imagine the process in an anoxic environment would be similarly complex).

    I saw that Syd explained how the anoxic system could remove NO3 and PO4 but didn't realise it could also reduce other soluble "pollutants" as well, reducing the need for as much water turnover. A tempting and exciting proposition.
    I am always happy to learn.

    So, I will definitely do some preliminary designs for an anoxic filter section. During any alterations if I take the plunge I would simply bypass this section so the "main" filter could carry on as normal reducing any impact on the ecosystem. If I do add an anoxic system I could probably squeeze in up to18 of the regulation sized baskets. I would probably need to fabricate a custom GRP trough to fit the space efficiently, but all doable.

    I'm glad I joined the forum
    Last edited by Ukzero; 22-11-2020 at 10:29 AM.
    My DIY ponds from 1988 until present day.
    All can be found here:
    https://www.ukzero.com/pond.htm

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