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  1. #21
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai Stephen01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    The problem you're having still seems baffling.

    My water GH is 18 out of the tap (the water cleaning the drum). Limescale is a major problem here. Water pressure is borderline the minimum the water company can get away with, in fact they've just been fined by Ofwat and forced to lower bills in my area.

    My Draco is cleaning every 5 minutes now in the heat wave, yet my drum mesh is fine.

    Maybe if you get a chance you can take a video of it cleaning, just in case something stands out.

    Here's mine and the jets sound a lot more powerful in the video than they actually are:



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewUPKIG68Ms
    https://share.icloud.com/photos/0DN6...wham_-_Beckton


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  3. #22
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai Stephen01's Avatar
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    Pls
    Let me know if the video link works !!!


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  5. #23
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai Stephen01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NickK-UK View Post
    What's the stocking and the grams of food fed each day? Also is the pond in sunlight?

    EDIT: I'm also a 58 micron solum16 user in a hard water area. Have you looked at descaling/de-biofiliming? I use mains water (about 3.2bar) which can cause scaling but reduces biofilm. Mine tends to go nuts if there's an algae bloom but my stocking/feeding regime is quite low for the size of filter.

    I've seen on facebook that Draco have offered to supply mesh for OASE customers - so they may offer it.

    If you want to DIY it, you could look at the stainless steel mesh (this example is a 77micron woven #200 mesh): https://www.robinsonwirecloth.co.uk/...ture-p53861509 but I suspect Draco would have it cheaper.
    Brilliant!! as with the other chap I’ll order a sample, couldn’t find any of these on my searches last night but hey this site is invaluable, thanks everyone


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  7. #24
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Adult Champion NickK-UK's Avatar
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    In my view there's two things that define a drum - waste per drum wash and flow rate. All the large industrial drums/sieves state the tested waste rate and flow rate.

    Stating that the sensor should trigger 1cm below the water level means you don't get a yo-yo effect - there's only 1cm of water but it means if the drum waste cases a drop of 1cm every minute the system will wash every minute. Now if the sensor is 10cm down, then the drum is going to take about 10x as long (assuming linear waste rate).

    A 80 micron screen will probably work just as well as a 58 screen but miss the fines - so in the end you add load to the filters further down.

    A kg of food a month = 1kg/30 in 8 hours (most people feed during the day). So that seems in the range 4g of food per hour?

    To me what's happening is:
    1. the sensor trips quickly being 1cm below the water level causing a large number of washes per hour.
    2. the rapid cleaning causes the safety to kick in - if it triggers whilst washing that may also cause it.. check for over spray but it shouldn't increase the the water level to make the sensor re-trigger...
    3. A surge of water comes in and replenishes the clean side... cycle repeats from 1. This may cause the sensor to re-trigger (hence video of it happening may help diagnose)

    I have to admit I've not had the safety kick in.. at one point it was washing every minute for most of the day when I first set it up but mine was pump fed.

    If you move the sensor down.. does result in a longer time between washes?
    14000l, my mutts: Chargoi (2010), Doitsu (2022), Tancho (2022), Kujaku (2022), Hi Utusri (2022)

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  9. #25
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai Stephen01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NickK-UK View Post
    In my view there's two things that define a drum - waste per drum wash and flow rate. All the large industrial drums/sieves state the tested waste rate and flow rate.

    Stating that the sensor should trigger 1cm below the water level means you don't get a yo-yo effect - there's only 1cm of water but it means if the drum waste cases a drop of 1cm every minute the system will wash every minute. Now if the sensor is 10cm down, then the drum is going to take about 10x as long (assuming linear waste rate).

    A 80 micron screen will probably work just as well as a 58 screen but miss the fines - so in the end you add load to the filters further down.

    A kg of food a month = 1kg/30 in 8 hours (most people feed during the day). So that seems in the range 4g of food per hour?

    To me what's happening is:
    1. the sensor trips quickly being 1cm below the water level causing a large number of washes per hour.
    2. the rapid cleaning causes the safety to kick in - if it triggers whilst washing that may also cause it.. check for over spray but it shouldn't increase the the water level to make the sensor re-trigger...
    3. A surge of water comes in and replenishes the clean side... cycle repeats from 1. This may cause the sensor to re-trigger (hence video of it happening may help diagnose)

    I have to admit I've not had the safety kick in.. at one point it was washing every minute for most of the day when I first set it up but mine was pump fed.

    If you move the sensor down.. does result in a longer time between washes?
    It’s up to 30 mins plus per wash cycle at the moment, it’s all a bit baffling I’ll fit a new screen next week when it arrives and hopefully that’ll be the end of it before it ends me lol. I’m not at my wits end just yet but if I’d gone away for a fortnight and the damn thing had killed my fish then a different story but I’ll keep plugging away with a new screen. I’ve already changed the float switch so that’s ruled out.... thanks


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  11. #26
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai Stephen01's Avatar
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    Did anyone see the link for the video, did it actually play


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  13. #27
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Adult Champion NickK-UK's Avatar
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    Youtube is easier.

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  15. #28
    Senior Member Rank = Yonsai Tropheus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen01 View Post
    Did anyone see the link for the video, did it actually play


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    Worked for me.

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  17. #29
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Adult Champion NickK-UK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tropheus View Post
    Worked for me.
    Worked on the Mac.

    Seems normal from a clean perspective.


    I know this is a daft question - but what behaviour are you expecting from the filter?

    If it's not the position of the sensor. The only thing I can think of is that there's some waste that the jet wash pushes out of the mesh and into the dirty side.. only for it to bung up again.
    14000l, my mutts: Chargoi (2010), Doitsu (2022), Tancho (2022), Kujaku (2022), Hi Utusri (2022)

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  19. #30
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen01 View Post
    Cleaning cycle looks perfect in the video, lots of pressure too.

    Is it cleaning with standard non dechlorinated tap water? If so it shouldn't be blocking up at that pressure.

    How often is it cleaning?

    What food are you feeding?

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  21. #31
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen01 View Post
    Did anyone see the link for the video, did it actually play


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    Yes it did

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  23. #32
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai Stephen01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NickK-UK View Post
    Worked on the Mac.

    Seems normal from a clean perspective.


    I know this is a daft question - but what behaviour are you expecting from the filter?

    If it's not the position of the sensor. The only thing I can think of is that there's some waste that the jet wash pushes out of the mesh and into the dirty side.. only for it to bung up again.
    Good question, I don’t have blanket weed in my pond at the moment therefore none in the filter, as I’ve been at home during the pandemic I’ve been feeding maybe to much but never ever more than a kilo a week. My initial thoughts for the behaviour of the filter after installation would be a few teething problems along the way from my not understanding the concept of gravity fed systems. I have been running pump fed filters with no issues. I ran my eazypod with a normal 8000 ltrs an hour pump no problem I’m running this filter at 70 % of 10,000 !!! So my expectations were high initially but have now left me with a trust issue which I’ve never had before. I guess if the whole back end was just k1 I may be different but there’s the million dollar question, having had the same problem over and over again losing the back end even at 60 % it’s got to be the screen.
    I THINK Drum 58 micron to 70 (change) LOL Drum 58 micron to 70 (change)


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  24. #33
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai Stephen01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    Cleaning cycle looks perfect in the video, lots of pressure too.

    Is it cleaning with standard non dechlorinated tap water? If so it shouldn't be blocking up at that pressure.

    How often is it cleaning?

    What food are you feeding?

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
    Morning, it’s running straight from my hose from the outside tap to the filter.(not de chlorinated) cleans every 30/40 mins after jet washing when I feed the times come down. I’m feeding Aquamaster growth and staple

    foods for all aquatic species.


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  26. #34
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Adult Champion NickK-UK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen01 View Post
    Good question, I don’t have blanket weed in my pond at the moment therefore none in the filter, as I’ve been at home during the pandemic I’ve been feeding maybe to much but never ever more than a kilo a week. My initial thoughts for the behaviour of the filter after installation would be a few teething problems along the way from my not understanding the concept of gravity fed systems. I have been running pump fed filters with no issues. I ran my eazypod with a normal 8000 ltrs an hour pump no problem I’m running this filter at 70 % of 10,000 !!! So my expectations were high initially but have now left me with a trust issue which I’ve never had before. I guess if the whole back end was just k1 I may be different but there’s the million dollar question, having had the same problem over and over again losing the back end even at 60 % it’s got to be the screen.
    I THINK Drum 58 micron to 70 (change) LOL Drum 58 micron to 70 (change)
    Gravity fed does take a little getting used to.

    IMG_8076.jpg

    In gravity fed, the RDF is no different to the other bays in the filter. The pump draw causes draw down which causes flow, which then draws down from the next bay.. just the RDF is the first. So it sees a draw down and being in the <58 micron (the apertures get smaller as scale and biofilm matures) means it gets a lot of the mess and it really does filter out lots of mess - if you shove a bucket under the waste out.. the amount of mess that you'd not even see normally that's in the bucket is phenomenal (it was pulling out masses of single celled algae etc earlier in the year). As the waste varies across the day (my muttley lot rummage around at night causing more washes than during the day) you'll see this variance.

    If the amount of waste per hour is high - it will simply fill the drum quickly (this is where drum size is important) can cause the draw down to trigger the sensor. Switching to a larger mesh micron simply means more of that waste travels down stream in the filter.

    The issue is manufacturers quote clean water flow rate - when new, the mesh has a percentage open so the flow rate can be calculated based on the mesh area (ie drum size). However how fast that mesh closes is down to the individual pond. Most new installations go nuts as you know for a week or so whilst the drum catches up then it stabilises - based on the feeding regime and the bio-load (ie algae etc).

    I think for gravity fed, the concept of only setting a small 1 cm trigger drop is correct. My reasoning is that the mesh area is already closed with waste that it is constraining flow. Lowering the sensor simply means it's forcing more and typically that's not good for the mesh and the mesh starts acting like a macerator breaking up waste due to the back pressure of water.

    So that leads to the question - if the drum operation is correct, the draw down in the stream of filters is enough to ensure a good gravity flow at the required rate, then is the mesh area large (or open area) enough to capture the amount of waste between desired washes whilst still maintaining the desired water flow rate to prevent a large draw down?

    The mesh area is the drum size - so it's fixed. A jet wash restores the open mesh area so you see the desired flow rate. So either:
    * the jet wash is warping the mesh to have larger micron holes until the mesh blocks up.. (larger micron mesh)
    * a longer wash is needed (but doesn't seem to do the job)
    * a separate high pressure spray pump supplying the spray bar to make a higher pressure wash may be the answer.

    Also the spray nozzles are 'anvil' types, these aren't the highest force nozzles you can get - a direct fan nozzle would give a higher impact against the mesh (essentially what your jet wash is doing).

    This all really points to the amount of waste being too much for the drum (area and microns) if the drum has to be scrubbed to maximise the open mesh area to work..


    One last 'test' would be to put a 1-200 micron sock over the final filter outlet before the pump and see if the filter is creating clumps of bacteria or waste that is being returned to the pond (or macerated by the pump causing fines to block the mesh).
    14000l, my mutts: Chargoi (2010), Doitsu (2022), Tancho (2022), Kujaku (2022), Hi Utusri (2022)

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  28. #35
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai Stephen01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NickK-UK View Post
    Gravity fed does take a little getting used to.

    IMG_8076.jpg

    In gravity fed, the RDF is no different to the other bays in the filter. The pump draw causes draw down which causes flow, which then draws down from the next bay.. just the RDF is the first. So it sees a draw down and being in the <58 micron (the apertures get smaller as scale and biofilm matures) means it gets a lot of the mess and it really does filter out lots of mess - if you shove a bucket under the waste out.. the amount of mess that you'd not even see normally that's in the bucket is phenomenal (it was pulling out masses of single celled algae etc earlier in the year). As the waste varies across the day (my muttley lot rummage around at night causing more washes than during the day) you'll see this variance.

    If the amount of waste per hour is high - it will simply fill the drum quickly (this is where drum size is important) can cause the draw down to trigger the sensor. Switching to a larger mesh micron simply means more of that waste travels down stream in the filter.

    The issue is manufacturers quote clean water flow rate - when new, the mesh has a percentage open so the flow rate can be calculated based on the mesh area (ie drum size). However how fast that mesh closes is down to the individual pond. Most new installations go nuts as you know for a week or so whilst the drum catches up then it stabilises - based on the feeding regime and the bio-load (ie algae etc).

    I think for gravity fed, the concept of only setting a small 1 cm trigger drop is correct. My reasoning is that the mesh area is already closed with waste that it is constraining flow. Lowering the sensor simply means it's forcing more and typically that's not good for the mesh and the mesh starts acting like a macerator breaking up waste due to the back pressure of water.

    So that leads to the question - if the drum operation is correct, the draw down in the stream of filters is enough to ensure a good gravity flow at the required rate, then is the mesh area large enough to capture the amount of waste between desired washes whilst still maintaining the desired water flow rate to prevent a large draw down?

    What is confusing is that a jet wash restores the open mesh area so you see the desired flow rate. So either a longer wash is needed (but doesn't seem to do the job) or a separate high pressure spray pump may be the answer.
    All of that makes sense and indeed true for the last sentence. My first response to this problem was getting the float at the correct level which meant some teething problems at the start, my idea to have the flow through the drum at 80 % for summer and much less at winter. I’ve set the wash cycle to number 3 so one and half minutes cleaning. The pump can pull up to 95 % of the max which I would not bother with as this would only worsen my predicament. As the flow through the drum gets harder because of fines and detritus collecting on the dirty side the back end of my filter will drop quicker than the first two I’ll post pics later therefore the position of the float switch is critical in my situation. If the float doesn’t activate before the last bay get starved of water the whole thing collapses.

    Maybe I’ll throw more cash at it and buy a new pump directly on the mains water and do way with the Solenoid. I’ll try a new screen first but I’m loath to throw more money at this if the new screen change doesn’t help. It may be a case if the whole thing needs to go as my trust will be completely shot at that point. Thanks in advance nik and everyone who’s responded


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  30. #36
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai Stephen01's Avatar
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    Do Direct fan nozzles fit dracos???


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  31. #37
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Adult Champion NickK-UK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen01 View Post
    Do Direct fan nozzles fit dracos???
    I suspect not out of the box - the location of fan sits to drive the waste into the waste chute. The direct nozzles may change the location and direction of the spray.
    14000l, my mutts: Chargoi (2010), Doitsu (2022), Tancho (2022), Kujaku (2022), Hi Utusri (2022)

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  33. #38
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai Stephen01's Avatar
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    Have a look if you have time for my new you tube vid lol Drum 58 micron to 70 (change)

    https://youtu.be/dqwLdLReCY0


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  35. #39
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by majeric View Post
    do you use a gate value of some sort to slow the flow down? or is your pump configurable?
    Variable / adjustable pump.

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  37. #40
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen01 View Post
    Have a look if you have time for my new you tube vid lol Drum 58 micron to 70 (change)

    https://youtu.be/dqwLdLReCY0


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    I'm not familiar with that specific drum but the whole process looked perfect to me.

    Float switch might be a little on the high side (didn't look like 10mm below water level after the clean).

    If the mesh was getting blocked your wash times would be coming down to under 5 minutes.

    Not sure if you already said, but how much are you flowing through the drum per hour vs the manufacturers recommendation?

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