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  1. #1
    Senior Member Rank = Mature Champion smartin's Avatar
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    Showa gone downhill and more flukes found

    lost for words, Showa was looking better after a recent salt dip but today i found it on the bottom clamped up and not taking any food at all, salt bathed it again today but at 2% this time which he did handle ok for 45 mins, put back into pond so will see how it is tomorrow, whilst i was sorting the Showa i netted my go to fish who always scrapes poorly if there are any parasites, only last week this fish was clear on 2 scrapes, well today i found 3 live fluke and a few dead ones...... So Lernex did not eradicate them, neither did Flukasol that's 4 x double doses the pond has had 2xLernex repeated after 5 days and used CT to reduce the mucus! .... been speaking with the dealer that the Showa came from and will probably look at doing a PP treatment on the pond once i can get my spare air filter going with the new accessories due Tuesday, i will keep the Showa out for the first hour or so as its too weak to be exposed to the full treatment, its last chance saloon for it, i have to rid the flukes before i lose others..... so fed up with these Flukes.


    2200 gallons,infinity window,
    Evolve 4k combi,spindrifter,
    2x20k pumps, BD,Skimmer,
    Shower, ASHP

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  3. #2
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion samp09's Avatar
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    Sorry to hear this mate, they seem to be radio active the way they are literally breezing through treatments and multiplying rapidly still.

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  5. #3
    Senior Member Rank = Jussai g mac's Avatar
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    It's hellish this isn't it? Do hope you can get it sorted and not lose any fish.

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  7. #4
    hi steve
    i had flukes recently. absolute nightmare. used flukesolve which is prazi based.i always use it, and it has always worked previously. used 2 doses. flukes still present in numbers.
    i then used kusuri fluke m (flubenderzole based) 2 doses 7 days apart. this got rid of my flukes.
    hope this helps.
    good luck

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  9. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by smartin View Post
    lost for words, Showa was looking better after a recent salt dip but today i found it on the bottom clamped up and not taking any food at all, salt bathed it again today but at 2% this time which he did handle ok for 45 mins, put back into pond so will see how it is tomorrow, whilst i was sorting the Showa i netted my go to fish who always scrapes poorly if there are any parasites, only last week this fish was clear on 2 scrapes, well today i found 3 live fluke and a few dead ones...... So Lernex did not eradicate them, neither did Flukasol that's 4 x double doses the pond has had 2xLernex repeated after 5 days and used CT to reduce the mucus! .... been speaking with the dealer that the Showa came from and will probably look at doing a PP treatment on the pond once i can get my spare air filter going with the new accessories due Tuesday, i will keep the Showa out for the first hour or so as its too weak to be exposed to the full treatment, its last chance saloon for it, i have to rid the flukes before i lose others..... so fed up with these Flukes.
    sorry to hear your still having problems mate.
    i lost my poorly fish .
    either RS2000 or Freddy mentioned to me to use CT (on my thread ) at 80grams per 1000gallons if i remember correctly , read through it on my find parasites post. that will kill flukes and anything else , but water needs to be spot on as its high risk treatment.

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  11. #6
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    As said by markini. I have always used fluke m. Fluke sol. Never did anything for me. And a lot of posts with fluke sol. Have nt cleared them. Ct 12 hours beforehand
    Then fluke m. Worked for me. Good luck steve. Gutted for you lol
    Fred

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  13. #7
    Senior Member Rank = Rokusai RipleyRich's Avatar
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    Maybe a daft question, but is there anywhere in your system that could be harbouring them during treatment?

    Do you have any bypasses (UV bypass etc) that are not open during treatment, veg filters etc.
    Are you 100% certain of pond volumes and dosage?
    Somehow, somewhere something has to be giving them a haven from the poison.

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  15. #8
    Senior Member Rank = Mature Champion smartin's Avatar
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    Hi all,

    its a very simple gravity set up consisting of a BD and skimmer 4" pipes running back to an Evolve 4000 combi filter which is a Burtons drum with built in UV and 2 large stacks of compressed Jap Matting with 2 returns back to the pond, Actual Water dimensions of the pond and water holding pipes / boxes are :-

    300cm x 194cm x 155 cm = 9021 litres or 1984 gallons
    Filter box =125cm x 55cm x 50cm = 343 litres or 75 gallons
    Pipework = 80 litres or 18 gallons
    Total for treatments - 9404 litres or 2068 Gallons.

    there are no bypasses, the Jap matting as you can see has some debris in the corners but its nothing horrendous and i am unsure if the matting should be cleaned / disturbed as to remove / lose good bacteria that has built up within the matting - this is the only thing that i have not physically cleaned but would of thought the chemicals would be absorbed through the matting and any pests would be killed off.??
    Before treatments i do the following


    • Turn off UV
    • Drop the switch stem right down so drum cleans are at there minimum to reduce treatment dilution
    • Trickle turned off
    • purge drains weekly
    • bung installed into the overflow again so that there is no possibility of treated water leaving the pond
    • i actually add a bit so if anything i slightly over dose
    • Perform a repeat dose at least 2 days quicker than what you should do to keep concentration up


    i will add photo's later on to support the above, thanks Steve.
    2200 gallons,infinity window,
    Evolve 4k combi,spindrifter,
    2x20k pumps, BD,Skimmer,
    Shower, ASHP

  16. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by smartin View Post
    Hi all,

    its a very simple gravity set up consisting of a BD and skimmer 4" pipes running back to an Evolve 4000 combi filter which is a Burtons drum with built in UV and 2 large stacks of compressed Jap Matting with 2 returns back to the pond, Actual Water dimensions of the pond and water holding pipes / boxes are :-

    300cm x 194cm x 155 cm = 9021 litres or 1984 gallons
    Filter box =125cm x 55cm x 50cm = 343 litres or 75 gallons
    Pipework = 80 litres or 18 gallons
    Total for treatments - 9404 litres or 2068 Gallons.

    there are no bypasses, the Jap matting as you can see has some debris in the corners but its nothing horrendous and i am unsure if the matting should be cleaned / disturbed as to remove / lose good bacteria that has built up within the matting - this is the only thing that i have not physically cleaned but would of thought the chemicals would be absorbed through the matting and any pests would be killed off.??
    Before treatments i do the following


    • Turn off UV
    • Drop the switch stem right down so drum cleans are at there minimum to reduce treatment dilution
    • Trickle turned off
    • purge drains weekly
    • bung installed into the overflow again so that there is no possibility of treated water leaving the pond
    • i actually add a bit so if anything i slightly over dose
    • Perform a repeat dose at least 2 days quicker than what you should do to keep concentration up


    i will add photo's later on to support the above, thanks Steve.
    as you have a drum before the jap matting , you shouldnt have any build up of muck if their is any build up then a quick rinse in bucket of pond water will do,

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  18. #10
    Senior Member Rank = Mature Champion smartin's Avatar
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    Hi all,

    its a very simple gravity set up consisting of a BD and skimmer 4" pipes running back to an Evolve 4000 combi filter which is a Burtons drum with built in UV and 2 large stacks of compressed Jap Matting with 2 returns back to the pond, Actual Water dimensions of the pond and water holding pipes / boxes are :-

    300cm x 194cm x 155 cm = 9021 litres or 1984 gallons
    Filter box =125cm x 55cm x 50cm = 343 litres or 75 gallons
    Pipework = 80 litres or 18 gallons
    Total for treatments - 9404 litres or 2068 Gallons.

    there are no bypasses, the Jap matting as you can see has some debris in the corners but its nothing horrendous and i am unsure if the matting should be cleaned / disturbed as to remove / lose good bacteria that has built up within the matting - this is the only thing that i have not physically cleaned but would of thought the chemicals would be absorbed through the matting and any pests would be killed off.??
    Before treatments i do the following



    • Turn off UV
    • Drop the switch stem right down so drum cleans are at there minimum to reduce treatment dilution
    • Trickle turned off
    • purge drains weekly
    • bung installed into the overflow again so that there is no possibility of treated water leaving the pond
    • i actually add a bit so if anything i slightly over dose
    • Perform a repeat dose at least 2 days quicker than what you should do to keep concentration up



    i will add photo's later on to support the above, thanks Steve. PHOTOS ATTACHED


    Attached Images Attached Images
    2200 gallons,infinity window,
    Evolve 4k combi,spindrifter,
    2x20k pumps, BD,Skimmer,
    Shower, ASHP

  19. #11
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    Im sorry to hear that you're still having fluke problems mate.

    The gill flukes mine had took 4 consecutive treatments to get them in the end and kill off the final hatch of eggs
    3 x fluke solve and 1 x fluke m.

    I found flukesolve to work really well and have little negative effect.
    The fluke m worked as well but effected the fish more.

    Lots of treatments can really knock the filters back though.
    And make them more susceptible.
    But there is little choice if they are plaguing the fish...

    Hope you get them sorted soon...
    Last edited by davethefish1; 09-08-2020 at 10:57 PM.

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  21. #12
    Im not buying into the recent theory of fluke resistant to the usual fluke treatments, i believe drums are the issue, drum prices are affordable meaning more people have them filtration is better meaning fluke treatments for the most part being not water soluble get filtered out. id suggest turning the drum off for 24 hours and if its got bypass plates open them up, better yet buy some pipework and bypass it that way. Apparently making your treatment up in a bucket and leaving it overnight/24 hrs with a lid on can help also

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  23. #13
    Senior Member Rank = Mature Champion smartin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephuk View Post
    Im not buying into the recent theory of fluke resistant to the usual fluke treatments, i believe drums are the issue, drum prices are affordable meaning more people have them filtration is better meaning fluke treatments for the most part being not water soluble get filtered out. id suggest turning the drum off for 24 hours and if its got bypass plates open them up, better yet buy some pipework and bypass it that way. Apparently making your treatment up in a bucket and leaving it overnight/24 hrs with a lid on can help also

    Hi Sephuk,
    I had flukes last year which i strongly believe came from a new fish, i treated with Flukasol and it eradicated them by following the above steps in my post, the same has happened this year except 4 double doses of treatment still has not worked........ the only way i can bypass the drum is to lift the whole thing out of the filtration box which is ball ache but do able....i am going to use PP in the next few days which should clean the whole system and hopefully eradicate the flukes.... i am with you regarding drums but by dropping the switch to its lowest setting it only goes off a handful of times a day, the pumps can only be turned down to a minimum of 30% as well, if i knew what i know now i would of had the filtration redesigned but being a complete novice one would of expected your very expensive pond builder and filtration supplier to install and supply equipment with process options to accommodate for these times.......
    2200 gallons,infinity window,
    Evolve 4k combi,spindrifter,
    2x20k pumps, BD,Skimmer,
    Shower, ASHP

  24. #14
    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai Koiz's Avatar
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    Really sorry to hear this. Did you use Lernex or Lernex Pro? They are very different. My Prazi-resistant skin flukes were eventually identified from my scrapes via Fiona McDonald (creator of FlukeSolve) as Gyrodactylus Sprostonae. The only thing that cleared them in the end, after 4 failed FlukeSolve treatments with salt to 0.9%, was Lernex Pro which is a combination of Nitroscanate, Praziquantel & Flubendazole. It's a harsh treatment, and I would only use it if other treatments have failed. For me, it was followed by an outbreak of Costia which was another saga altogether, but the Pro did finally clear the flukes which had hung around for 10 months causing havoc. I preceded it with 2 days of CT, and dosed twice, 7 days apart but temps were at around 13C at that time, rising to 18C by the second treatment.

    I'd be really cautious about PPing the whole pond as this is going to wipe out your filter at the strength you'll need to make any impact on Flukes, and even then, it's unlikely to work on them. PP is great, but it can really bash the gills. You don't want to be dealing with NPS on top of everything else.

    Drums are a real issue with powdered treatments (I learned this the hard, expensive way!), and one of the reasons I chose to move from a Draco in Nexus to a ProfiClear was because I can remove the screens in the Profi rather than the whole drum, which is what I did in the end to be absolutely sure I treated all the pipework, and then sterilised the drum separately. It was a real pain in the butt, but the cost of all the treatments and the toll it was taking on my fish outweighed the hassle.

    You could try whizzing the powder up with a bit of tepid water in a blender first, then adding to a bucket of pond water before adding to the pond. This really does help to dissolve it, but I'd still not risk the drum taking it out. You also need to be 100% certain of the water volume you are treating to ensure you do not under dose. Turn off your UV during treatment - regardless of what the packet may say! My final tip is to make sure your pond level is higher than normal during treatments to ensure you catch any critters hanging around at the edges.

    Hope some of this is helpful, and sorry if I've repeated anything you already knew
    Last edited by Koiz; 10-08-2020 at 03:31 PM.
    11,440L Raised Pond, BD, Oase ProfiClear, Bitron 55W, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade

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  26. #15
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Hi Smartin,

    Really sorry to read of these ongoing fluke issues. It is ridiculous that we have to spend so much money on treatments that fail time and time again, and watch our Koi deteriorate throughout the treatment process.

    I've also learned from your issues since I recommended normal Lernex originally.

    For me, Fluke Solve did nothing and Fluke P did nothing. Since they were prazi based I tried Lernex (Flubendazole and Levamisol). It wiped them out fast, and completely.

    I know you're now in a situation of throwing good money after bad, but you now have to consider that if Lernex hasn't killed off the flukes your next step is to try a different product that is not Flubendazole or Levamisole based since you've proven these have had little effect on your fluke population.

    Fluke Solve (powder) and Fluke P (liquid) are both Praziquantel based. My preference would be the Fluke P seeing as its liquid based and won't get filtered out by the drum but I have suspicions about how effective it is seeing that it is only 5% prazi compared to Fluke Solve being 50% prazi.

    As Markini said, I have killed everything in my pond (except the Koi) using CT at very high doses, but the dose is very dependent on your water hardness. I treated at 80 grams per 1000 gallons for 3 consecutive days, did a large water change on day 5, then treated one more time 6 days after the last CT dose to catch any hatching eggs) which is a massive amount (you can buy in bulk from Duncan's website) and the Koi went through it without any issues or sulking at all. However, my water hardness is:
    GH: 18
    KH: 8 at time of dosing
    pH: 8.2

    If your water is softer than mine you'd need a lower dose or it will kill your koi. I'd be happy to give you the dosage if you gave me your parameters, but you'd be administering at your own risk, however, CT can be instantly neutralised with ST crystals. These doses will knock your filters, but not terribly or for long.

    Personally I wouldn't go down the PP route as a treatment since I'm doubtful it does much to the mucus coating, it won't touch flukes, and the weather is currently very hot, but it could possibly be used to neutralise any organics that are causing other treatments to get "spent" too quickly.

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  28. #16
    Senior Member Rank = Mature Champion smartin's Avatar
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    Hi Koiz, RS and everyone,

    Salt dips at 2% has had a positive effect as the koi is swimming around today and has fed a few pellets, its wobbly and panting still but not as bad, the salt is helping its congested gills, so today has been encouraging, it did this a few days back but the next day it was on the bottom, will see how it is tomorrow.... regarding PP this is now on hold as the Showa has perked up, going to spend the next few days trying to strengthen it up as it is very thin.
    Thanks for all of your advice, i will remove the drum from the water next time i treat for these flukes, never used FLUKE M before so may try that, i did CT my pond 12 hours prior to using Lernex as per yours and Freddys advice but it did not work, my pond measurements are all disclosed as on my previous thread along with photographs, i will do a water test tomorrow and will post all results, thanks for your help and advice ladies and gents, i am thoroughly pee'd off right now, catch up tomorrow, its time for dinner and lots of desperado's which is just how i feel right now.
    2200 gallons,infinity window,
    Evolve 4k combi,spindrifter,
    2x20k pumps, BD,Skimmer,
    Shower, ASHP

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  30. #17
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    That is good news about the Showa improvement and I hope it lasts.

    My worst affected (the Doitsu Ochiba from my feeding videos) went really skinny when it had skin flukes.

    Just bear in mind mate that Fluke M is flubendazole, i.e similar to Lernex. If anything Lernex is the stronger of the 2 and has additional components.

    Therefore I personally would be looking for a different anthelmintic, but you never know what may or may not work with Flukes.

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  32. #18
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    Hope it improves steve.
    Fred

    Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

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  34. #19
    Senior Member Rank = Rokusai RipleyRich's Avatar
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    I used Fluke M earlier this year.
    I run an Oase drum and it worked a dream, one hit, all gone.

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  36. #20
    Senior Member Rank = Mature Champion smartin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RipleyRich View Post
    I used Fluke M earlier this year.
    I run an Oase drum and it worked a dream, one hit, all gone.
    two words Rich - lucky you..
    2200 gallons,infinity window,
    Evolve 4k combi,spindrifter,
    2x20k pumps, BD,Skimmer,
    Shower, ASHP

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