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  1. #1

    Drum max level nonsense

    So I wasn't happy with the levels of my drum and decided to refit it today. However, the max mark isn't achievable as the water overflows the waste shoot about 15mm before the max mark.

    I also used some blue circle rapid set cement, it's pretty handy as I laid it at about 12 midday and have it running again at 6pm, It goes off fast.





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  3. #2
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Adult Champion NickK-UK's Avatar
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    Just looking at the position with he drum itself - that's VERY high.. almost the full drum is above water!

    The blue cap is a bypass I assume, so that's your minimum level and the bypass is submerged. I think that's fine.. I think the max mark wouldn't work in operation. Looks like the max mark is higher and a chute revision has lowered the max level? Odd the bypass is so high unless it's an overflow to pond?

    Either way - as long as the drum isn't overflowing to waste.. that 's that's your max.
    14000l, my mutts: Chargoi (2010), Doitsu (2022), Tancho (2022), Kujaku (2022), Hi Utusri (2022)

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  5. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by NickK-UK View Post
    Just looking at the position with he drum itself - that's VERY high.. almost the full drum is above water!

    The blue cap is a bypass I assume, so that's your minimum level and the bypass is submerged. I think that's fine.. I think the max mark wouldn't work in operation. Looks like the max mark is higher and a chute revision has lowered the max level? Odd the bypass is so high unless it's an overflow to pond?

    Either way - as long as the drum isn't overflowing to waste.. that 's that's your max.
    It's just overflowing when the pumps are off.


    I am completely baffled now as to what the correct level should be and if I've just lowwerd it for nothing.
    Last edited by kikokuryu John; 10-07-2020 at 07:26 PM.

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  7. #4
    If I turn my pumps off I loose about 3 inches of the pond down the waste mate. I use my waste as a trickle out so it's just over flowing when everything is running. If it works like how you have it then it's fine I think the more of the drum under water the better

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  9. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by NickK-UK View Post
    Just looking at the position with he drum itself - that's VERY high.. almost the full drum is above water!

    The blue cap is a bypass I assume, so that's your minimum level and the bypass is submerged. I think that's fine.. I think the max mark wouldn't work in operation. Looks like the max mark is higher and a chute revision has lowered the max level? Odd the bypass is so high unless it's an overflow to pond?

    Either way - as long as the drum isn't overflowing to waste.. that 's that's your max.
    It’s not just that - the issue is that the drum doesn’t scoop all the muck out when it’s that high - the reason being the blades that lift the muck from the bottom as it rotates then slides of as it’s still in the water. Once it gets to a certain point it must be clear of the water to stay on until it’s blasted off over the waste tray.

    Ask me how I know that.....

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  11. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by DiabloDave View Post
    It’s not just that - the issue is that the drum doesn’t scoop all the muck out when it’s that high - the reason being the blades that lift the muck from the bottom as it rotates then slides of as it’s still in the water. Once it gets to a certain point it must be clear of the water to stay on until it’s blasted off over the waste tray.

    Ask me how I know that.....



    How do you know that?


    So would you say I have it set to high?

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  13. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by kikokuryu John View Post
    How do you know that?


    So would you say I have it set to high?
    Personally I think you are better on the minimum but of course this may be different for each drum. Advantage being you can now experiment by popping some spacers under to lift the drum and see if you get better performance.

  14. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by DiabloDave View Post
    Personally I think you are better on the minimum but of course this may be different for each drum. Advantage being you can now experiment by popping some spacers under to lift the drum and see if you get better performance.

    It was just above the minimum before I decided to lower the drum. I have no idea if I have done the right thing or not, but since I've now discovered it's impossible to get to the maximum mark I really am baffled of what height to set it at.

    Regarding the maximum mark thing, the drum manufacturer are looking into it as mistakes are not supposed to happen in the building process. That's been a real bonus about this purchase, any questions I've had are always answered quickly.




    Edit.

    Wouldn't setting the sensor/float switch lower resolve the cleaning issue as the level will get lower when ready for a clean?

    I don't know if this is true or not as I don't have enough experience with a drum yet.
    Last edited by kikokuryu John; 10-07-2020 at 10:33 PM.

  15. #9
    My synergy max level is a gnats cock below the top of the waste so something isn’t quite right with yours.

    Regarding the level sensor, I’ve got mine set as high as possible which means it cleans a bit more frequently but I’m not emptying the drum dirty side and can pull a bit more water through.
    My waste is also better as an overflow than my overflow in the skimmer

    Takes a bit of fiddling and you probably will lose water out of the pond as the level rises and falls which if you trickle in you wouldn’t notice at first.

    My anoxic chambers are lower than the drum, just, otherwise I’d “lose” 4” of water depth when the drum is dirty if they were all level. As it is, there’s also a bit of draw down when the pumps are running which the drum manufacturers never mention.
    When I turn my pumps off and everything backflows I’m a whisker away from it all overflowing lol.


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  17. #10
    Senior Member Rank = Nanasai Handy Kenny's Avatar
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    I run a drum gravity fed from the pond. I have it set really low as the pond level actually goes up and down by around 2 inches depending on whether the drum needs to go through a cleaning cycle or not. When I had the water level set high initially (and to manufacturers spec) the dirty side simply overflowed into the waste chute when the drum needed a clean. My drum empties on the clean side into a sump which is a good bit lower so the clean side of the drum empties quickly and this makes a big difference if your float is on the clean side of the drum. If all pumps and drum are off the water level should be the same in the pond, the drum and any outflow like a sump or another chamber. To make it work for me I bought another float switch and attached it to the dirty side of the drum, when the pond level (and the dirty side of the drum) goes up the new float switch actuates the cleaning cycle. The original float switch still actates the cleaning cycle if the water on the clean side of the drum goes down. The water on the dirty side only ever reaches about half way up the actual drum itself. To me on a gravity fed RDF I think that the water level in the dirty side and the pond is more important than the water level on the clean side.

    From what you describe and the photo I think I would be playing around with raising the drum an inch or so (decking boards are good) so that the water level is even below the Min level. It took a lot of fiddling about with floats and drum heights to make it work for me in a way that didn't have the drum going every 10 minutes or overflowing.

    Kenny

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  19. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Handy Kenny View Post
    I run a drum gravity fed from the pond. I have it set really low as the pond level actually goes up and down by around 2 inches depending on whether the drum needs to go through a cleaning cycle or not. When I had the water level set high initially (and to manufacturers spec) the dirty side simply overflowed into the waste chute when the drum needed a clean. My drum empties on the clean side into a sump which is a good bit lower so the clean side of the drum empties quickly and this makes a big difference if your float is on the clean side of the drum. If all pumps and drum are off the water level should be the same in the pond, the drum and any outflow like a sump or another chamber. To make it work for me I bought another float switch and attached it to the dirty side of the drum, when the pond level (and the dirty side of the drum) goes up the new float switch actuates the cleaning cycle. The original float switch still actates the cleaning cycle if the water on the clean side of the drum goes down. The water on the dirty side only ever reaches about half way up the actual drum itself. To me on a gravity fed RDF I think that the water level in the dirty side and the pond is more important than the water level on the clean side.

    From what you describe and the photo I think I would be playing around with raising the drum an inch or so (decking boards are good) so that the water level is even below the Min level. It took a lot of fiddling about with floats and drum heights to make it work for me in a way that didn't have the drum going every 10 minutes or overflowing.

    Kenny
    Great message Kenny. I always though a drum would be low maintenance but I wouldn’t be happy going away and leaving it for our house sitter to just feed. They are just too sensitive to change. I don’t like how the drum causes the water to go up and down in the pond if the float is set low, then if the float is set high it can be triggered constantly when the water is particularly dirty - the result being it shuts off the clean cycle if it’s been triggered for too long and then the bio empires and the pump runs dry.

    I miss my old set up where I had two different sized vortexes and then a massive multi bay behind. If I had the space I’d go back to that TBH. I could easily leave that for two weeks when we went on holiday and there was none of this silly water going up and down. I can’t see how a drum filtered pond cannot have a trickle in and out or auto too up - none of my old ponds needed that!

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  21. #12
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Adult Champion NickK-UK's Avatar
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    Overflowing to the chute, on operation, is the max mark. Mine is pump fed but my sensor is set to trip just as it is about to overflow. Sensor position is different for pump fed.

    For Gravity.. it's the pump out increasing the hight of the pond, as the drum fills with waste and the flow slows through the drum, the pond rises. What is needed is a mechanism that reverse weirs a bypass (perhaps through a bypass sieve). Then as the pump reduces the clean side level, the weir starts kicking in, allowing the higher water level to bypass through the sieve until the drum cleans.

    Just put a gravity fed sieve in parallel with the drum.
    14000l, my mutts: Chargoi (2010), Doitsu (2022), Tancho (2022), Kujaku (2022), Hi Utusri (2022)

  22. #13
    Still to early to tell but seems to running ok, it doesn't overflow to waste during a cleaning cycle. Have not tried it yet but imagine it will if I turn the pumps off, it did when the level was at minimum so it would be weird if it didn't now.

  23. #14
    Senior Member Rank = Nanasai Handy Kenny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiabloDave View Post
    Great message Kenny. I always though a drum would be low maintenance but I wouldn’t be happy going away and leaving it for our house sitter to just feed. They are just too sensitive to change. I don’t like how the drum causes the water to go up and down in the pond if the float is set low, then if the float is set high it can be triggered constantly when the water is particularly dirty - the result being it shuts off the clean cycle if it’s been triggered for too long and then the bio empires and the pump runs dry.

    I miss my old set up where I had two different sized vortexes and then a massive multi bay behind. If I had the space I’d go back to that TBH. I could easily leave that for two weeks when we went on holiday and there was none of this silly water going up and down. I can’t see how a drum filtered pond cannot have a trickle in and out or auto too up - none of my old ponds needed that!
    DiabloDave,

    Actually my drum is really low maintenance compared to the other 3 filtration systems I tried to get working properly. It took around 6 months to get it going perfectly (not least to get into my head that in my setup I should have an extra float on the dirty side) but has gone now for more than 2 years without a major hitch and I am really pleased with it. Wouldn't go back to anything else, holidays - no problem. If anyone wants a wee vortex or an Aqua Forte sieve or a pressure filter then just get in touch! I am in central Scotland.

    NickK-UK,

    My own system is gravity from the pond all the way through the RDF and into a 2000 litre below ground sump from where the water is pumped back into the pond using my one and only pump. That pump in the sump will stop when sump water level gets too low which sometimes happens. There is no real back pressure from the RDF water outlet to allow any depth of water on the clean side of the drum although that could be controlled better with a big on/off valve. Having a bio box behind the RDF would help to create some back pressure (and depth of water on the clean side) and then it would be down to the pump as you say, but I don't need it. All my bio, gas heating, most anoxic filtration, oyster shells, serra siporax, water overflow, water drip feed, water pumping and uncle Tom Cobbley takes place in the sump. I didn't mean too end up with what I have but since the system was designed for previous filtration attempts I have it, but if I was designing a new 20,000 litre pond and filtration and had the space I would do the same again.

    Getting the balance between pump and outflow from the RDF is probably the really tricky bit when you have a smaller system. Something that turned the pump off when the water on the dirty side of the RDF got too high would help. But the more technical things get the more there is to go wrong. And the the one thing we can all rely on is if things could go wrong - they will.

    Kenny

  24. #15
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Adult Champion NickK-UK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Handy Kenny View Post
    NickK-UK,

    My own system is gravity from the pond all the way through the RDF and into a 2000 litre below ground sump from where the water is pumped back into the pond using my one and only pump. That pump in the sump will stop when sump water level gets too low which sometimes happens. There is no real back pressure from the RDF water outlet to allow any depth of water on the clean side of the drum although that could be controlled better with a big on/off valve. Having a bio box behind the RDF would help to create some back pressure (and depth of water on the clean side) and then it would be down to the pump as you say, but I don't need it. All my bio, gas heating, most anoxic filtration, oyster shells, serra siporax, water overflow, water drip feed, water pumping and uncle Tom Cobbley takes place in the sump. I didn't mean too end up with what I have but since the system was designed for previous filtration attempts I have it, but if I was designing a new 20,000 litre pond and filtration and had the space I would do the same again.

    Getting the balance between pump and outflow from the RDF is probably the really tricky bit when you have a smaller system. Something that turned the pump off when the water on the dirty side of the RDF got too high would help. But the more technical things get the more there is to go wrong. And the the one thing we can all rely on is if things could go wrong - they will.
    New pond will have a volume of 11.5-11.7K litres will have a 1,300 anoxic chamber gravity fed from the rdf/bio then it's all airlifted or pumped from there.
    14000l, my mutts: Chargoi (2010), Doitsu (2022), Tancho (2022), Kujaku (2022), Hi Utusri (2022)

  25. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by kikokuryu John View Post
    So I wasn't happy with the levels of my drum and decided to refit it today. However, the max mark isn't achievable as the water overflows the waste shoot about 15mm before the max mark.

    I also used some blue circle rapid set cement, it's pretty handy as I laid it at about 12 midday and have it running again at 6pm, It goes off fast.


    OP - something I had noticed but not really thought of is the blue bung. Assuming that’s a bypass? Has it struck anyone else that it’s in an unusual position? It looks too high as the water level will only ever get to a third of the way up due to the waste chute being overflow and that is where the water level is in the photo?

  26. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by DiabloDave View Post
    OP - something I had noticed but not really thought of is the blue bung. Assuming that’s a bypass? Has it struck anyone else that it’s in an unusual position? It looks too high as the water level will only ever get to a third of the way up due to the waste chute being overflow and that is where the water level is in the photo?


    It has 2 at the top and 2 at the bottom. But yes it does seem strange that most of the top ones would never be used. I should hopefully get a response in a few days about what's happened with the build as something isn't right.
    Last edited by kikokuryu John; 13-07-2020 at 10:47 AM.

  27. #18
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Adult Champion NickK-UK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kikokuryu John View Post
    It has 2 at the top and 2 at the bottom. But yes it does seem strange that most of the top ones would never be used. I should hopefully get a response in a few days about what's happened with the build as something isn't right.
    The top sounds like an overflow bypass.. in case the sensor fails or the drum clean fails? However it seems a little oddly placed with the water levels.
    14000l, my mutts: Chargoi (2010), Doitsu (2022), Tancho (2022), Kujaku (2022), Hi Utusri (2022)

  28. #19
    Mines the same, 2 low down, 2 half in/half out of the water in clean side


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  29. #20
    On the installation instructions for the Solum 25 it says water level should be;
    To maximise the area of filter screen under water, the waste tray should be half
    submerged at this running water level. The float switch should then be set so that the floating tip of
    it is approximately 5mm below that.

    Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

 

 
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