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Thread: poss addition

  1. #21
    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai Koiz's Avatar
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    A chargeback, or Section 75 claim, may not be as straightforward as you think. You have to prove that you have tried to settle the matter directly with the retailer and given them opportunity and time to refund, repair (not applicable in this case), or replace. Only once you have exhausted those options will the card company want to take up their third party liability status and refund you (and that's only if you have paid £100 or more on the card either in deposit or full payment). They may even want to see evidence of the agreement between you and the retailer in the form of a contract, T&Cs on the retailers website, or emails or texts of any agreement you reached. So, before you go this route, it is probably wise to try to come to an agreement with the seller, in writing (email if poss), so that you have a trail of evidence and only if that fails, then go the Section 75 route. If you do not do this in the right order, you risk the ability to keep lines of communication open with the seller, which at this stage you probably need in order to collate the evidence necessary to take it further if you don't get satisfaction. I've had a number of successful Sec 75 claims, but you do need to proceed in the right order to be certain of success

    Another option, if you have legal support via your household insurance, is to get some free legal advice so you know what parts of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 you can use to support your case.

    This is such an unfortunate situation, and tricky in that contracts or agreements in writing are not considered when a seller offers to hold onto a fish for you, as Feline has explained. But decency would dictate that the seller would have been in touch with you as soon as the death occurred to let you know, so it does all sound a bit worrying.

    When I bought my home in 2011, it came with a pond which was full of Koi and goldfish. I offered to look after these for the seller until they were able to find suitable homes for them all as they were moving into rented accommodation so were not able to take the fish with them. However, I did say that we'd need to draw up a contract in which they would detail how they would like the fish cared for, fed (I said I'd pay for the food), etc and absolving me of any fatalities that may occur during that time. I offered for them to visit the fish as often as they liked until they were rehomed. I advised them that I had extensive aquarium fish keeping experience, but had never had a pond. Instead, they chose to dump all their fish on neighbours (who were not equipped to take so many, so you can imagine what happened there), and then when I refused to pay £500 to them at the 11th hour before exchange of contracts for the filtration equipment that they couldn't tell me the make or age of, they ripped it all out creating a huge mess and damage to the patio and the pond, and left me with a hole in the ground and all the sick and ugly fish they couldn't palm off! A few months later, I found out from neighbours, and the company that actually built my home, that the filtration equipment was what the builders had installed when the house was built as the first owners wanted a pond - so it was a 'home made' multi-bay system that was 11 years old! There's nowt so queer as folk

    I really hope your seller turns out to be better to deal with than this lot were
    Last edited by Koiz; 20-10-2020 at 01:20 PM.
    11,440L Raised Pond, BD, Oase ProfiClear, Bitron 55W, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade

  2. #22
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feline View Post
    It’s a bit of a legal grey area this when it comes to fish.
    The law accepts that livestock is not like a cardboard box on a warehouse shelf. By agreeing to hold on to a fish owned by someone else, with all the associated costs of feeding, filtration, water, heating, the dealer/person does not necessarily accept liability for death. Sickness, injury and death are considered the risk all livestock keepers take. If they were in some way negligent in the way they looked after your fish it would be different, but this is hard to prove.

    I believe the koi that buyers choose to leave out in Japan in the breeders ponds are not guaranteed in any way. You have to accept the risk that they might not come back out of that mud ponds the following year. Sometimes an alternative fish is offered as a goodwill gesture etc.

    There would be no harm in trying a credit card refund etc. Was this is eBay purchase or from somebody with a proper registered company?
    This is correct regarding fish losses in Japan and is normally in the TOS. In fact I think this is the gap in the market Mike Snaden is filling by offering Azukari in safe and secure indoor concrete ponds.

    When such koi are offered for sale they are often priced as POA so the terms can be discussed, agreed and contracted.

    In the OPs case the dealer would not stand a chance if there was no such agreement at the outset and further to that if the Dealer genuinely believed that agreement existed it would have been his duty to contact the buyer and also to demonstrate evidence of the death which it doesn't sound like he has done. Who's to say the Dealer hasn't re-sold those Koi.

    Same applies regarding any charges associated with keeping the Koi for an extended time - Dealer to quote additional upkeep charges which most Koi Dealers do by setting a collection deadline after which charges apply.

    Personally I struggle to believe the story about them being electrocuted, and if they were then likely the entire pond/vat was in which case the Dealer will have taken photos to submit for any insurance claim or warranty/liability claim on the malfunctioned electrical component.

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  4. #23
    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai Koiz's Avatar
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    All very valid points from RS - and also raises the question - if these fish died from electrocution, just how suitable was their set up and do they actually have a licence from their local authority to sell livestock?
    11,440L Raised Pond, BD, Oase ProfiClear, Bitron 55W, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade

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  6. #24
    Moderator Rank = Supreme Champion Feline's Avatar
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    Has anyone else noticed that the fish in the original post is the exact same fish that StevePeps also saw?

    From the description of Phil having ‘won’ this fish I am thinking this is an eBay seller and not necessarily a bona fide dealer.

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  8. #25
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Yonsai LouiseR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koiz View Post
    A chargeback, or Section 75 claim, may not be as straightforward as you think. You have to prove that you have tried to settle the matter directly with the retailer and given them opportunity and time to refund, repair (not applicable in this case), or replace. Only once you have exhausted those options will the card company want to take up their third party liability status and refund you (and that's only if you have paid £100 or more on the card either in deposit or full payment). They may even want to see evidence of the agreement between you and the retailer in the form of a contract, T&Cs on the retailers website, or emails or texts of any agreement you reached. So, before you go this route, it is probably wise to try to come to an agreement with the seller, in writing (email if poss), so that you have a trail of evidence and only if that fails, then go the Section 75 route. If you do not do this in the right order, you risk the ability to keep lines of communication open with the seller, which at this stage you probably need in order to collate the evidence necessary to take it further if you don't get satisfaction. I've had a number of successful Sec 75 claims, but you do need to proceed in the right order to be certain of success
    There is a difference between a chargeback claim made under the voluntary scheme operated by banks and credit card companies and a legal claim made under Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act - the difference is explained in the link that I provided in my original post. Basically, a chargeback claim can be made re: transactions usually of any value made on debit cards, credit cards and pre-payment cards. A Section 75 claim can only be made re: credit card transactions where the value of the transaction is between £100 and £30,000.

    As it appears that you paid by credit card you can make a chargeback claim under the voluntary scheme and, if one fish or both fish each cost £100 or more (ignoring shipping costs), you can also make a Section 75 claim.

    The matters that you refer to in your post are sufficient to get your claim going - as there are time limits involved I would contact your credit card provider ASAP and at least lodge the claim - they will tell you what, if any, further proof/information they need.

    I’m not suggesting that your claim vis a vis your credit card provider will succeed - the dealer’s agreement to hold the fish and his responsibilities re: that period does muddy the waters (no pun intended) - but, recovering your money otherwise than by bringing a claim against the dealer in the small claims court has got to be the first way to go IMO.

    Keep us posted ....

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  10. #26
    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai Koiz's Avatar
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    Thanks for clarifying that Louise
    11,440L Raised Pond, BD, Oase ProfiClear, Bitron 55W, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade

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  12. #27
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Gosai phil45's Avatar
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    well i have logged a dispute with credit card company just to get the ball rolling and notified the dealer of the same ,he has just answered with .............wait until spring and choose fish to the same value ......

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  14. #28
    Senior Member Rank = Hassai Steve1984's Avatar
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    Amazing, why couldn't they just do that in the first place and save the hassle

    Sent from my SM-G977B using Tapatalk

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  16. #29
    Senior Member Rank = Jussai Spongebob's Avatar
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    I just don’t get it. Imagine a reputable dealer pulling a stunt like that. The world is full of C****s.
    Fibreglassed/5000 gals/4.5 m Tunnel/Spindrifter/Twin drums/Bio chambers/Beads/Showers/Remora ASHP

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  18. #30
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion Gazkoi's Avatar
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    From dealers perspective things do go wrong from time to time as we are not immune to all the challenges a hobbiest faces. However communication and transparency often lead to greater appreciation and admiration but are feared by many as perversely it is commonly believed this may lead to negative publicity and a social media spanking.

    Waiting for customers to discover problems that have (giving the benefit of any doubt) occurred will never make the til echo.

    Hopefully whoever this dealer is will give you as many fair options for a satisfactory remedy as possible and all will conclude happily.

    Cheers

    Gaz
    Hobby and business gone but when you’re hooked you’re hooked.

    Always happy to help!!

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  20. #31
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Yonsai LouiseR's Avatar
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    Phil, if you do choose to resolve your dispute with the dealer in the manner that he’s suggested:

    # Don’t withdraw your chargeback claim until the dispute is resolved to your satisfaction.

    # Make clear to the dealer that all discussions/negotiations to resolve the dispute with him are entirely without prejudice to your rights to recover a full refund whether by way of your chargeback claim or otherwise.

    # If you are prepared to agree to what the dealer is proposing make sure that the agreement is set out very clearly in, or is evidenced in writing - you can achieve this by email exchange. Make sure that you include a provision that entitles you to a full refund if the fish offered to you in the spring are not acceptable to you for any reason regardless of whether they are the same value as the fish that you bought. You should also spell out the date on or by which you will be offered the replacement fish.

    Remember that if you do enter into this agreement and it all falls apart next year, your only recourse will be to sue the dealer on the agreement via the small claims court - if the dealer goes bust or disappears between now and then you’ll be left with nothing.

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  22. #32
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Gosai RudeDogg1's Avatar
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    Bet he just sold em to someone else

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  24. #33
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion Gazkoi's Avatar
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    Done intentionally that would be a disgraceful practice.

    Cheers

    Gaz

    Quote Originally Posted by RudeDogg1 View Post
    Bet he just sold em to someone else
    Hobby and business gone but when you’re hooked you’re hooked.

    Always happy to help!!

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  26. #34
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gazkoi View Post
    From dealers perspective things do go wrong from time to time as we are not immune to all the challenges a hobbiest faces. However communication and transparency often lead to greater appreciation and admiration but are feared by many as perversely it is commonly believed this may lead to negative publicity and a social media spanking.

    Waiting for customers to discover problems that have (giving the benefit of any doubt) occurred will never make the til echo.

    Hopefully whoever this dealer is will give you as many fair options for a satisfactory remedy as possible and all will conclude happily.

    Cheers

    Gaz
    Things going wrong = business opportunities.

    I sold 62,000 items on eBay and never received a single negative feedback (excluding competitor fake feedback). Some of my products were not of the highest quality. Think that's proof of how you deal with problems being a key to success.

    Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk

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  28. #35
    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai Koiz's Avatar
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    Excellent advice from Louise.

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    11,440L Raised Pond, BD, Oase ProfiClear, Bitron 55W, 2x10k Aquaforte Varios, Skimmer to Waterblade

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  30. #36
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion Gazkoi's Avatar
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    I could not agree more.

    Cheers

    Gaz

    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    Things going wrong = business opportunities.

    I sold 62,000 items on eBay and never received a single negative feedback (excluding competitor fake feedback). Some of my products were not of the highest quality. Think that's proof of how you deal with problems being a key to success.

    Sent from my Pixel 4a using Tapatalk
    Hobby and business gone but when you’re hooked you’re hooked.

    Always happy to help!!

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