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  1. #1
    Senior Member Rank = Nanasai samp09's Avatar
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    Striving for perfect water

    So what is peoples advice to get perfect water? As some of you know I filled my pond up near the end of December, and despite regular testing with no severe issues and weekly 10% changes I have suffered a few losses of mostly small tosai. Today I lost my favourite which was a small showa that had grown to 22cm from 16cm around mid March. I haven't added any more fish since the Goshiki I purchased on May 9th. What seems to happen is the fish get a bit tatty around the fins or a small mark on them somewhere then do not seem to really recover from it and one day they may pinecone or like the showa just seem to get a bit red and die.

    I had treated the pond with FMG for some white growths on a couple of the fish a little while back, and then more recently with acriflavine, and it seems every time I use a treatment I lose a fish, like it tips them over the edge or something. The strange thing is most the time its a fish that has up till that point shown no ill effects or issues The beautiful asagi I lost was fine, nothing wrong at all, feeding happily etc then when I was using FMG, the first week of treatment I used it one of its pecs went red for a day or two, then went back to normal with the fish acting normal, then the next week or so one day it was pineconed and died shortly after.

    I have scrapped since I had flukes and treated and found no signs of them. Also all the flashing on the bottom etc had stopped although I get the odd flick on the surface but its not a common thing.
    Its awfully frustrating trying to treat the issues as soon as they are spotted but then at the same time having the worry that by treating I may lose another small fish as it seems literally the following week I lose one.

    I treated with the acriflavine on Thursday last week and the showa was not looking good on Monday despite being completely fine on the sunday, then it died overnight last night. The only thing I had done was added clay on Sunday which I have used plenty of times before. I also done a 20% water change Monday evening to try and improve the water just because I noticed the showa was not its normal self.
    When I treated for flukes I first done the small recommended dose of CT before the correct dose of Fluke M, and my Ai goromo had what looked like peeling skin all over the Hi on the fish, although the scales were there under. It was after the chloramine which is a small dose compared to if I had been treating the pond properly with it,15g per 1000G if I remember correctly? With this fish I tried cleaning it up with ulcer swab and putting a top sealer over it, a bath in acriflavine, a salt bath all a few days apart to see if there was any improvement but nothing. This was all after the treatment was finished and I done a 20% water change.

    I am at a stage now where I am not treating the water with anything despite a couple of fish having a bit of fin damage because I feel like I am doing more harm than good with any treatments I have used and I have not just done them blind, I have done them when I have looked thoroughly into what the issue seems to be and the best way to treat it. The strange thing with the Acriflavine treatment ( first time in the whole pond I have used it) is that the mirror and goshiki both had little white marks on them which were probably damaged in the pond, the mirror definitely was as it had a white mark on its nose within a week of getting it where it bumped into something, and this has now healed completely despite being there for nearly 5 months when I got it and it not repairing, so it worked well in that sense. Its only a mild treatment and I have used the correct recommended doses on the treatments too which is why its baffling that a fish seems to die when I use them.
    I use ST for the water, air bottom drain on always pretty much and weekly 10% changes with regular testing coming back clear. I am not even feeding that much either maybe a tablespoon a few times a day is the most on average but have cut back on that too now.
    I haven't said much about this on here because I have felt embarrassed and ashamed/gutted to lose the fish. I probably got too excited by adding too many gradually, but all my tests have been fine, so I thought at first the couple I lost were down to the temp fluctuations and NPS, but now I think I have lost 6 in total since March. When I have lost fish it seems to happen so quickly too, one day they are acting fine, eating and swimming around normally, then within 2 days its died.

    My plan for now is to do regular water changes as normal, maybe a couple extra ones over the next week or so where I can, and not put anything extra into the pond treatment wise for a while and see if it all calms down and settles other than the weekly dose of clay. Is this a good plan or does anyone have any suggestions/ideas?



  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by samp09 View Post
    So what is peoples advice to get perfect water? As some of you know I filled my pond up near the end of December, and despite regular testing with no severe issues and weekly 10% changes I have suffered a few losses of mostly small tosai. Today I lost my favourite which was a small showa that had grown to 22cm from 16cm around mid March. I haven't added any more fish since the Goshiki I purchased on May 9th. What seems to happen is the fish get a bit tatty around the fins or a small mark on them somewhere then do not seem to really recover from it and one day they may pinecone or like the showa just seem to get a bit red and die.

    I had treated the pond with FMG for some white growths on a couple of the fish a little while back, and then more recently with acriflavine, and it seems every time I use a treatment I lose a fish, like it tips them over the edge or something. The strange thing is most the time its a fish that has up till that point shown no ill effects or issues The beautiful asagi I lost was fine, nothing wrong at all, feeding happily etc then when I was using FMG, the first week of treatment I used it one of its pecs went red for a day or two, then went back to normal with the fish acting normal, then the next week or so one day it was pineconed and died shortly after.

    I have scrapped since I had flukes and treated and found no signs of them. Also all the flashing on the bottom etc had stopped although I get the odd flick on the surface but its not a common thing.
    Its awfully frustrating trying to treat the issues as soon as they are spotted but then at the same time having the worry that by treating I may lose another small fish as it seems literally the following week I lose one.

    I treated with the acriflavine on Thursday last week and the showa was not looking good on Monday despite being completely fine on the sunday, then it died overnight last night. The only thing I had done was added clay on Sunday which I have used plenty of times before. I also done a 20% water change Monday evening to try and improve the water just because I noticed the showa was not its normal self.
    When I treated for flukes I first done the small recommended dose of CT before the correct dose of Fluke M, and my Ai goromo had what looked like peeling skin all over the Hi on the fish, although the scales were there under. It was after the chloramine which is a small dose compared to if I had been treating the pond properly with it,15g per 1000G if I remember correctly? With this fish I tried cleaning it up with ulcer swab and putting a top sealer over it, a bath in acriflavine, a salt bath all a few days apart to see if there was any improvement but nothing. This was all after the treatment was finished and I done a 20% water change.

    I am at a stage now where I am not treating the water with anything despite a couple of fish having a bit of fin damage because I feel like I am doing more harm than good with any treatments I have used and I have not just done them blind, I have done them when I have looked thoroughly into what the issue seems to be and the best way to treat it. The strange thing with the Acriflavine treatment ( first time in the whole pond I have used it) is that the mirror and goshiki both had little white marks on them which were probably damaged in the pond, the mirror definitely was as it had a white mark on its nose within a week of getting it where it bumped into something, and this has now healed completely despite being there for nearly 5 months when I got it and it not repairing, so it worked well in that sense. Its only a mild treatment and I have used the correct recommended doses on the treatments too which is why its baffling that a fish seems to die when I use them.
    I use ST for the water, air bottom drain on always pretty much and weekly 10% changes with regular testing coming back clear. I am not even feeding that much either maybe a tablespoon a few times a day is the most on average but have cut back on that too now.
    I haven't said much about this on here because I have felt embarrassed and ashamed/gutted to lose the fish. I probably got too excited by adding too many gradually, but all my tests have been fine, so I thought at first the couple I lost were down to the temp fluctuations and NPS, but now I think I have lost 6 in total since March. When I have lost fish it seems to happen so quickly too, one day they are acting fine, eating and swimming around normally, then within 2 days its died.

    My plan for now is to do regular water changes as normal, maybe a couple extra ones over the next week or so where I can, and not put anything extra into the pond treatment wise for a while and see if it all calms down and settles other than the weekly dose of clay. Is this a good plan or does anyone have any suggestions/ideas?



    Can you provide some water readings. I know you use ST, but how much water are you changing at a time(do you have trickle in/out) and is it been introduced through a dechlorinator?

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  4. #3
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    Sorry to hear this sam.
    Don t feel guilty or embarrassed mate.
    The forum is here to help.
    Is anything leeching.
    Have you tested for chlorine with
    Dpd4 tablets. Out of top up end hose and pond.
    Are you adding the correct amount of st.
    Is to much air going in the pond.
    Test tap for all parameters.
    Just some things to think about.
    When I had my pond built. Its brick work.
    And the cement was leeching. I was losing fish.
    It took me 6 months to fathom this out lol. I ended up putting a sealer on it.
    And then all was well. Plus I had to lower my air flow.
    It's all a process of elimination to get your set up right.
    If no crap in pond and stuck in pipe work
    For bad bacteria.
    Look for dead spots. The reason I say this.
    I have two returns. I can only run one at a time. As one goes clock wise. And one anti clockwise.
    So one is a dead spot. I now run these every 3 days. By switching them.
    Just a few pointers for you to look into.
    Hope this helps you. As it's not nice losing fish.
    And speak up mate. Where here to help if we can
    Fred


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  6. #4
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    I'd agree with John and Fred on things to check first.

    What is your history of Ammonia and Nitrite readings?

    Could the issues with fins be ammonia burns that are getting infected?

    What is your pH, KH and GH and how stable are those parameters over a period of time?

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  8. #5
    Pine cone thing sounds like dropsy?????


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  10. #6
    Senior Member Rank = Yonsai bicolormoth's Avatar
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    sounds bacterial rather than parasitic.
    5000g, Drum Filter/Gravity, + MBB, Skimmer-Sieve-Shower.

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  12. #7
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bicolormoth View Post
    sounds bacterial rather than parasitic.
    That's what I'm thinking, but didn't want to jump to conclusions just yet.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

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  14. #8
    I think something very odd is happening this year - so many people suffering issues. I have lost 4 fish in total. I’m now testing every two days, constant trickle in and out but my nitrates are still high - ammonia and nitrites are good, pH stable at 8.0

    I am sure it is something to do with the incoming water - I think the water companies are pumping chemicals into the supplies because of the fears over Covid-19 contamination.
    Last edited by DiabloDave; 02-07-2020 at 07:39 PM.

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  16. #9
    Senior Member Rank = Nanasai samp09's Avatar
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    I just done a water test which is typical of all tests I have done on the pond:

    Ammonia 0
    Nitrite trace if being fussy.
    Nitrate 2.5-5.0
    PH -8 always the same shade as using NT labs kit
    KH - 8 drops or 142.4 ppm
    GH - 18 drops or 320.4 ppm

    The pond is fibreglassed so I don't think anything is leeching in.

    I usually do water changes by dumping the waste from the filter into a water butt and then pumping to waste, purging the bottom drain until the crap stops coming. Then what I do is use a double dose, more like triple dose of ST on a new piece of filter wool in my skimmer with the hose going through the top of the skimmer and over the ST soaked wool so that it passes over it on its way into the pond whatever way it goes.Haven't tested for chlorine but I thought the double dose should counteract that anyway. I make the ST solution of 63g of crystals in 400ml of boiling water and then going by Manke Sanke's chart 25ml would do 1000l and I usually put about 100ml in for a 1300-1500l water change.

    Too much air? I didn't know this could be an issue, I usually leave my Air drain on when out which is a lot as I work full time and leave it on over night etc but its on a 50lph pump and I only leave it on full wack when out and over night so that the surface is rippled to hopefully prevent any herons spotting some dinner.

    I don't see any crap gathering on the bottom, other than the occasional turd which if theres a couple I will brush down the bottom drain.My returns are to create a clockwise vortex in the pond which I can see works and all edges are angled not square if you get me so theres no corners at all.

    Thank you for the replies so far, I do think its a bacterial issue rather than parasites but how do I check for this? I feel like its a water quality issue but as far as I can see I am not doing anything wrong

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  18. #10
    Maybe stop the water changes if your parameters are ok? Obviously then test more frequently to keep on top of any changes. I’m thinking of doing that to mine but need my filters to mature a little more first...

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  20. #11
    You started your pond in December, and since then you ave treated with Chloromine T, FMG, fluke M, acriflavine, and regular top ups of sodium thiosulphate. Are you sure that enough water was changed so there could be no reaction between each treatment? Also, each one will have an effect on the filter bacteria which, unless you heated from the start, can’t be fully established yet.
    I think what you’re doing now is the right thing, no chemicals, regular water changes or trickle in. I don’t know how many or what size fish you have, but you filters are probably in a fragile state at the moment, feed sparingly, give them a chance to grow. Once mature, they can withstand the occasional treatment,.
    Setup a hospital tank or vat, (easier to heat now the weather’s warmer) and If necessary treat fish there rather than dose the whole pond. I think koi may prefer stable water over perfect water.
    Mark
    19,000 litres
    Nexus 320 with Dracodrum and submersible UV
    Blue Eco 320
    Eazy Pod on skimmer
    Dura+ 10kW Heat Pump
    16 koi

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  22. #12
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Hassai NickK-UK's Avatar
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    My view is perfect water is without change.

    Removing mechanically to leave the water as free from matter - if I had the money Id run two drums - one at 60 Micron That feeds into one at 15 microns. The size of the drums needs to be large enough to cope with the through put.
    I think, if anoxic works as it seems to, run an the biological.

    Only thing is Tanin is 0.5 microns, so would probably want something to cope with that!

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  24. #13
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiabloDave View Post
    I think something very odd is happening this year - so many people suffering issues. I have lost 4 fish in total. Im now testing every two days, constant trickle in and out but my nitrates are still high - ammonia and nitrites are good, pH stable at 8.0

    I am sure it is something to do with the incoming water - I think the water companies are pumping chemicals into the supplies because of the fears over Covid-19 contamination.
    I was thinking exactly the same mate.

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  26. #14
    Senior Member Rank = Rokusai RipleyRich's Avatar
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    My experiences would suggest you have some form of bacterial issue present.

    As has been said above, check everywhere for dead spots and crud build up.

    I would get some Virkon S tablets and give it a routine dosing of that at 2 tablets to 500 gallons.
    It`s not hard on the fish or filters and will not harm.

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    Senior Member Rank = Yonsai Twhitenosugar's Avatar
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    Hi Sam. Sorry to hear of your problems. Do you use the NT labs test kit. If so are you definitely sure the ammonia kit works?

    I ask as I use the same kit and whilst all the tests generally seem to work (over time they've produced slightly varying results, although like you, the ph one always comes out at 8), I now doubt the ammonia one works.

    I was going over my past water test results and was shocked to see that I've only once registered ammonia and that was a trace reading. My pond was only filled in October last year. And although I've only added fish at intervals and mostly since it's been warmer, I can't believe the ammonia levels have been that low. I'll be ordering a new kit asap.

    So if you've made a note of your test results, double check your ammonia readings. And if like me you've rarely had an ammonia reading at all, you might want to get yourself a new kit.

    Im guessing we bought our kits from the same shop (koi logic) at a similar time. So it could just be a dodgy batch. Fyi my kit expires November this year.

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    12,500L fibreglassed raised pond with window

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  30. #16
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samp09 View Post
    I just done a water test which is typical of all tests I have done on the pond:

    Ammonia 0
    Nitrite trace if being fussy.
    Nitrate 2.5-5.0
    PH -8 always the same shade as using NT labs kit
    KH - 8 drops or 142.4 ppm
    GH - 18 drops or 320.4 ppm

    The pond is fibreglassed so I don't think anything is leeching in.

    I usually do water changes by dumping the waste from the filter into a water butt and then pumping to waste, purging the bottom drain until the crap stops coming. Then what I do is use a double dose, more like triple dose of ST on a new piece of filter wool in my skimmer with the hose going through the top of the skimmer and over the ST soaked wool so that it passes over it on its way into the pond whatever way it goes.Haven't tested for chlorine but I thought the double dose should counteract that anyway. I make the ST solution of 63g of crystals in 400ml of boiling water and then going by Manke Sanke's chart 25ml would do 1000l and I usually put about 100ml in for a 1300-1500l water change.

    Too much air? I didn't know this could be an issue, I usually leave my Air drain on when out which is a lot as I work full time and leave it on over night etc but its on a 50lph pump and I only leave it on full wack when out and over night so that the surface is rippled to hopefully prevent any herons spotting some dinner.

    I don't see any crap gathering on the bottom, other than the occasional turd which if theres a couple I will brush down the bottom drain.My returns are to create a clockwise vortex in the pond which I can see works and all edges are angled not square if you get me so theres no corners at all.

    Thank you for the replies so far, I do think its a bacterial issue rather than parasites but how do I check for this? I feel like its a water quality issue but as far as I can see I am not doing anything wrong
    Mine is fiber glassed. But brickwork above fiber glass. And coping stones. I should have worded it better.
    Fred

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  32. #17
    Senior Member Rank = Nanasai samp09's Avatar
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    6FE8257C-E238-41C3-AFC1-17BAE36E5355.jpg
    This is the pond in question. I believe I lost fish to the same sort of issue before I put the coping stones on. I wonder if Tom is on to something in regards to the test kit as I have not had any spikes really with mine ammonia wise so if anyone can recommend a good kit? I will look into Virkon tablets Rich, what exactly do they do? I also have salt available but I don't really want to put anything in the pond if I am honest. I just want it to establish itself well. I also think the presence of previous treatments may be an issue however its not been a case of one to the other on a weekly basis there has been time (weeks) and water changes between. I have 200 Litres of crystal bio glass media in my filter which is a lot to mature too but I would have thought once matured it would be more than adequate for the pond.

  33. #18
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Where are you based Samp?

    Sorry if you've already mentioned. If near me I'd be happy to come take a look.

    Your water hardness is almost identical to mine strangely enough.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

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  35. #19
    Senior Member Rank = Nanasai samp09's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    Where are you based Samp?

    Sorry if you've already mentioned. If near me I'd be happy to come take a look.

    Your water hardness is almost identical to mine strangely enough.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
    I am in Sudbury, right on the Suffolk/Essex border. Sephuk has been helping me via PM and has suggested that one issue could be the filter, where there isn't enough mechanical filtration with just the vortex on the outside of the gravity shower filter I have and so there could be crap collecting among the bio and thats whats causing the issue.

    Another thing is I dont dump the waste out the filter apart from weekly water changes, so maybe I should start doing this daily. The main reason I dont is because the level drops then the skimmer pump starts to struggle as it draws a lot of air in when the water drops a bit.

    Ideally I need to raise the filter about 10-20mm to get a bit more water over the skimmer and then dump the waste every day to keep on top of it I think.

    Another idea is to add a block of Jap mat at the top of the vortex where it feeds into the shower part of the filter so that it stops the crap getting into the shower part to fester if it gets caught up in the media like it may be doing currently. I never wanted a filter which required regular attention and thats what I thought I was getting with mine.

    This is the filter https://www.koilogic.co.uk/roto-conc...ty-shower/p309

    Looking around the pond I can't really see any other dead spots, and until I shook the media bags a minute ago, the water was gin clear so I am sure I would have spotted them if in the actual pond. The only other thing that may be worth mentioning is I am not sure my bottom drain has a great pull due to the fact when I have swept crap on the bottom near to the edge of it, it hasn't got sucked in. I would have thought within a couple of inches of it a fish turd would get pulled into the drain pretty easily.

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  37. #20
    Senior Member Rank = Nanasai samp09's Avatar
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    Just to add, thank you to everyone who's taken the time to try and help me, its greatly appreciated.

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