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Thread: Stumped...

  1. #41
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    It is tough when you can't find anything on a scrape and it is tempting to go down the shotgun route.

    I've always avoided treating with anything unless I've seen the culprit with with my own eyes. So I was surprised when this Dealer said go ahead and PP. When I questioned it he said he PPs his own pond at the first sight of unexplained behaviour (obviously he's experienced with a good eye for what symptoms he'd expect from any specific parasite) and based on my answers to all his questions if that was his pond he'd PP, no question.

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  3. #42
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion john1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sephuk View Post
    nope salt thins it and can make some gremlins come off too its good stuff and cheap! You would have to be a bit cautious if you do have gill flukes incase the gills are damaged
    Sep, what dose of salt do you use and how long ?
    I have heard of loads of different dosage and times.
    John

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  5. #43
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion john1's Avatar
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    Hope you are sorted Dave so you can enjoy your lovely pond and get the pagola finished.
    John

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  7. #44
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion john1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    It is tough when you can't find anything on a scrape and it is tempting to go down the shotgun route.

    I've always avoided treating with anything unless I've seen the culprit with with my own eyes. So I was surprised when this Dealer said go ahead and PP. When I questioned it he said he PPs his own pond at the first sight of unexplained behaviour (obviously he's experienced with a good eye for what symptoms he'd expect from any specific parasite) and based on my answers to all his questions if that was his pond he'd PP, no question.
    Interesting that Rs,if you remember I lost a big koi a couple of weeks ago he was sitting on the bottom for a few weeks not feeding and fins open and nothing on the scrapes.
    I have had another doing similar no flashing not eating and nothing on the scrapes,but noticed yesterday and this morning she has started swimming about so hopefully she is picking up.
    Water etc is fine so will bear in mind the pp dose,presume it is the normal amount.
    John

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  9. #45
    Senior Member Rank = Nanasai davethefish1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    It is tough when you can't find anything on a scrape and it is tempting to go down the shotgun route.

    I've always avoided treating with anything unless I've seen the culprit with with my own eyes. So I was surprised when this Dealer said go ahead and PP. When I questioned it he said he PPs his own pond at the first sight of unexplained behaviour (obviously he's experienced with a good eye for what symptoms he'd expect from any specific parasite) and based on my answers to all his questions if that was his pond he'd PP, no question.

    i think if you have done lots of scrapes and not been able to identify any of the usual suspects,
    it's not really a shotgun treatment, where you are just guessing blind.
    it's basically using the same diagnostic process that doctors use with us humans, tests, biopsies, eliminate the most serious conditions.
    and failing that, then treat the symptoms based on the most common illness...
    The Solution to Pollution is Dilution

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  11. #46
    Senior Member Rank = Nanasai davethefish1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john1 View Post
    Hope you are sorted Dave so you can enjoy your lovely pond and get the pagola finished.
    Thanks John,
    it's infuriating and disheartening when you have problems you can't identify...
    mine were driving me crazy...thought it might be ph swings, or something toxic in the water....
    just hope i can relax and enjoy the pond for a bit now.

    though there always seems to be something to do...
    hmmm...bigger pond....?
    The Solution to Pollution is Dilution

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  13. #47
    Senior Member Rank = Nanasai davethefish1's Avatar
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    well i'm not sure if i have got this issue totally licked...

    fish have been fine for weeks now, last of 3 doses of flukesolve went in about 3 weeks ago.
    and hadn't been showing any symptoms a week or 2 before that.

    then yesterday i noticed the ochiba occasionally flashing, and flicking his left pectoral fin.
    then getting moody and hanging round near the bottom of the pond on the far side.
    scrapes revealed nothing,as they did before.

    i'm not hanging around waiting for it to get worse...as i did last time...
    the shop didn't have the flukesolve in the size i wanted in stock, i decided to use some Fluke M.
    i've just put a dose in and will see how this goes.

    the pond has been back on trickle in/out for a week or so,
    and i reckon either there are fluke eggs that aren't hatching until the treatment is diluted/gone
    or they are still hatching out a lot longer than is usual or known. pond is still at over 19C...

    anyway i'm going to give this 7 days, then give it a second dose, and see if that's long enough to finally finish them off....
    The Solution to Pollution is Dilution

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  15. #48
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    So frustrating mate, I know how you feel.



    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

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  17. #49
    Senior Member Rank = Nanasai davethefish1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    So frustrating mate, I know how you feel.



    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
    thanks RS,
    it is a pain when you think you've got it sorted...

    though i've been through a similar mill with one of my old reef tanks,
    having to haul all the fish out for two months into a bare tank no biological filtration, just salted and medicated water changes.

    only difference is marine whitespot has an academically documented lifecycle.
    so you know exactly how long to treat, and what with, to guarantee success...

    pity the same info isn't researched for koi...
    no cure for covid or flukes, what flipping use are these research laboratories...
    The Solution to Pollution is Dilution

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  19. #50
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davethefish1 View Post
    thanks RS,
    it is a pain when you think you've got it sorted...

    though i've been through a similar mill with one of my old reef tanks,
    having to haul all the fish out for two months into a bare tank no biological filtration, just salted and medicated water changes.

    only difference is marine whitespot has an academically documented lifecycle.
    so you know exactly how long to treat, and what with, to guarantee success...

    pity the same info isn't researched for koi...
    no cure for covid or flukes, what flipping use are these research laboratories...
    Sorry to hear this dave. Keep your chin up mate. There are quite a few this is happening to this year.
    Fred

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  21. #51
    Senior Member Rank = Nanasai davethefish1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freddyboy View Post
    Sorry to hear this dave. Keep your chin up mate. There are quite a few this is happening to this year.
    Fred

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    Cheers Fred,
    the ochiba didn't like the fluke M at all, started flashing for about and hour or so as soon as i'd finished putting it in.
    and then sulked in a corner, only reluctantly coming up for food.

    the rest of the fish were unfazed by the treatment, and would come straight over looking for food everytime i went to check on the ochiba.
    i'm hoping i caught this early enough to prevent another cycle of eggs being released, and it will nip it in the bud...
    The Solution to Pollution is Dilution

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  23. #52
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Jussai anne's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=davethefish1;334747]Cheers Fred,
    and then sulked in a corner, only reluctantly coming up for food.

    If I'm having a sulk in the corner a chocolate Éclair, usually does it for me...…
    worth a try...….

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  25. #53
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=anne;334816]
    Quote Originally Posted by davethefish1 View Post
    Cheers Fred,
    and then sulked in a corner, only reluctantly coming up for food.

    If I'm having a sulk in the corner a chocolate Éclair, usually does it for me...…
    worth a try...….
    And me anne. Followed by a magnum chocolate ice lolly.
    Stumped...Stumped...
    Fred

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  27. #54
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Nanasai NickK-UK's Avatar
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    Volume size, population size. It all becomes a hideous maths mode. Statistically a distribution - now that exists over time.

    If you consider one life cycle, then consider there are X parasites at various points on their lifecycle. You end up needing to treat more often and probably longer the larger and more mature the population of parasites. Then add the complexity of filters and how long it takes to ensure every part of the filter is treated.

    So if you've got a really difficult infestation to treat - it's likely that you need think about longer and multiple treatments that are strong enough. You may have 10 fish but you may have 20,000 litres of water and it's that water you have to treat rather than the fish. Obvious comment to those more experienced in koi than me.. (I deleted 'more mature than me' )

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  29. #55
    Senior Member Rank = Nanasai davethefish1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NickK-UK View Post
    Volume size, population size. It all becomes a hideous maths mode. Statistically a distribution - now that exists over time.

    If you consider one life cycle, then consider there are X parasites at various points on their lifecycle. You end up needing to treat more often and probably longer the larger and more mature the population of parasites. Then add the complexity of filters and how long it takes to ensure every part of the filter is treated.

    So if you've got a really difficult infestation to treat - it's likely that you need think about longer and multiple treatments that are strong enough. You may have 10 fish but you may have 20,000 litres of water and it's that water you have to treat rather than the fish. Obvious comment to those more experienced in koi than me.. (I deleted 'more mature than me' )
    i thought i was erring on the side of caution treating 3 times over a span of 4 weeks,
    after reading about a supposed lifecycle of just 3-4 days @ 20C for gill flukes.

    but i'll be treating and re-treating for much longer this time, as long as the fluke M is effective.
    which judging by the behaviour so far, looks to be the case.
    The Solution to Pollution is Dilution

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  31. #56
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai RipleyRich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davethefish1 View Post
    i thought i was erring on the side of caution treating 3 times over a span of 4 weeks,
    after reading about a supposed lifecycle of just 3-4 days @ 20C for gill flukes.

    but i'll be treating and re-treating for much longer this time, as long as the fluke M is effective.
    which judging by the behaviour so far, looks to be the case.
    Might be obvious questions so please excuse me, I`m just trying to think of anything that may be preventing complete eradication.

    - UV off
    - Bypasses open (at least slightly to ensure flow)
    - No filters bypassed
    - Water level at max (no refuge areas just above water line)
    - Trickle feed off (this will dilute the treatment)

    Pay particular attention to showers and filters where the media is not submerged as not all areas get consistent flow.

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  33. #57
    Senior Member Rank = Nanasai davethefish1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RipleyRich View Post
    Might be obvious questions so please excuse me, I`m just trying to think of anything that may be preventing complete eradication.

    - UV off
    - Bypasses open (at least slightly to ensure flow)
    - No filters bypassed
    - Water level at max (no refuge areas just above water line)
    - Trickle feed off (this will dilute the treatment)

    Pay particular attention to showers and filters where the media is not submerged as not all areas get consistent flow.
    yes to all.
    no shower and all filter media is submerged.

    reading back through recent fluke posts (last couple of years)
    there seem to be problems with some fluke eradication, and the need for ever diverse forms of chemicals to treat them.
    about 3 or 4 different chemicals now.. the latest praziquantel originally being an animal wormer...
    indicating that they are finding a way around the chemicals as all organisms will try to do.

    i think it is more a length of treatment with gill flukes, rather than ineffectiveness, as no one treatment will kill them as the eggs will hatch out at a later point.
    the only downside being, under the right conditions that can be over 6 months.
    Last edited by davethefish1; 06-06-2020 at 11:30 PM.
    The Solution to Pollution is Dilution

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  35. #58
    Senior Member Rank = Nanasai davethefish1's Avatar
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    well that didn't last long, 3 fish started flashing again on saturday after an inital improvement adding the fluke M.
    so i had them out for scrapes... again found nothing.

    so after a water change and filter clean gave them another full dose of fluke M.
    initially the 3 fish that had started flashing became more agitated, one of them making a bid for freedom
    but had the net in place over the pond as i always do when treating the water.

    that was first thing, things have settled down again by tonight.
    but i don't think the fluke M lasts anything like as long as flukesolve does judging by the reoccuring symptoms after just 4 days.
    that i didn't get with fluke solve.

    so i've ordered some more fluke solve and will dose that next in a weeks time.
    The Solution to Pollution is Dilution

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  37. #59
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davethefish1 View Post
    well that didn't last long, 3 fish started flashing again on saturday after an inital improvement adding the fluke M.
    so i had them out for scrapes... again found nothing.

    so after a water change and filter clean gave them another full dose of fluke M.
    initially the 3 fish that had started flashing became more agitated, one of them making a bid for freedom
    but had the net in place over the pond as i always do when treating the water.

    that was first thing, things have settled down again by tonight.
    but i don't think the fluke M lasts anything like as long as flukesolve does judging by the reoccuring symptoms after just 4 days.
    that i didn't get with fluke solve.

    so i've ordered some more fluke solve and will dose that next in a weeks time.
    Seems strange Dave. That your not finding
    Anything on any of your scrapes mate.
    And there flashing.
    Things are weird this year. There is quite a few people this year not found anything on there scrapes. And fish are flashing a lot.
    Or in some cases dieing.
    It's got me stumped lol.
    Same with mine. I scraped 7 fish that where flying about flashing and jumping.
    Did nt find anything twice. Then I find one dead. Scraped it in 3 places. And found one solitary costia. No where near enough to kill that fish. Weird.
    I am now thinking about my air. In the pond.
    I have air running in my nexus. Bottom drain air. Water shute putting air in and now a bakki shower.
    My problems started after adding the shower. And changing my pump on skimmer circulation. Maybe to much air
    Or double the circulation on my pond.
    Maybe mine is to do with stressing them.
    I can't quite work it out. Good luck with it mate
    Fred

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  39. #60
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai RipleyRich's Avatar
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    Lots of things will make them flash, pollutants in the water being a common issue:

    Ammonia
    Nitrite
    High Nitrate
    Chlorine
    Metals
    Run off from gardens or even materials surrounding the pond can irritate them.
    Black algae is also very nasty

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