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  1. #1
    Senior Member Rank = Rokusai smartin's Avatar
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    Water Perameters is there a crash looming ?

    Hi all,

    I have noticed today that my PH has dropped to 6.5 its usually 7 to 7.5 also noticed the KH which is usually between 3 and 5 is at 1...… never seen it this low before, I wonder if the colder water temps have anything to do with this or because i have stopped trickling in ??
    I have looked back over some previous posts and from the information found it looks like the calculation is 30g of Sodium Bicarbonate per 1000 litres, could someone confirm that this is correct for me please, and i need to add this daily until the KH and PH has risen ? many thanks Steve..



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  3. #2
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Rokusai davec's Avatar
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    30 grammes per 1000 litres 220 gallons is what I used to stabilise my ph kh as mine were dropping I just add if and when needed now but test regular


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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  5. #3
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion john1's Avatar
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    According to Manky bring the ph up to 7 and hold it there for a bit then slowly raise it.
    Have you checked your tap water Steve?
    If that is low you will allways have to top up with s/bicarb.
    John

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  7. #4
    That's very important if the pH has actually crashed to a low value in order to give the fish time to recover and also because the bugs in the biofilter are inhibited by values lower than about 6 pH so there would probably be a build up of ammonia. At 7 pH, even if there is a high value of total ammonia, virtually all of it will be in the relatively non toxic ionised ammonia (NH4) form and virtually none will be in the toxic free ammonia (NH3) form. The pause allows the fish and the biofilter to recover with the fish safe from acidosis caused by the low pH and while they are also protected from toxic free ammonia until the biofilter can recover and remove any ammonia build up.

    Even if the pH hasn't plummeted this is still good practice on the grounds of "better safe than sorry".

    How to recover safely from a pH crash is on my website here:

    http://www.mankysanke.co.uk/html/questions_answered.html#pHcrash


    Last edited by Manky Sanke; 27-11-2019 at 05:50 PM.

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  9. #5
    Hmm, my site is secure and has a current SSL certificate so the link in the above post is safe but it doesn't link to my article. Has anyone else had trouble posting links to other sites or does the new status for this forum ban all links?

    If anyone wants to read the article, just copy the link and paste it direct into the address line of your browser.
    Last edited by Manky Sanke; 27-11-2019 at 06:06 PM.

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  11. #6
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion Ajm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manky Sanke View Post
    Hmm, my site is secure and has a current SSL certificate so the link in the above post is safe but it doesn't link to my article. Has anyone else had trouble posting links to other sites or does the new status for this forum ban all links?

    If anyone wants to read the article, just copy the link and paste it direct into the address line of your browser.
    Syd your link works straight to the ph section mate . For me anyway

    Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk
    Johnathan

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  13. #7
    Thanks Johnathan. It still doesn't do anything when I click it but I've just got my wife to go to this post and click the link and she said it goes to my article ok.

    So why is this forum just picking on me or is it that my browser is refusing to let me go to my own site?

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  15. #8
    Senior Member Rank = Sansai gt350's Avatar
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    Good link,just read it AND saved it.Handy to have on file,

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  17. #9
    Senior Member Rank = Rokusai smartin's Avatar
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    Hi all,

    thanks for your replies so far....

    The ammonia was zero, nitrite 0.2 and nitrate around 20, ph 6.5 and KH 1...... Fish looking well and eating, i have not done a partial water change for a while and have stopped trickling in since the water temp has dropped...... any new water goes through the 3 stage dechlorinator which has brand new cartridges.... my question is now that waste levels are low and water is crystal clear is it essential to trickle in still or do partial water changes ? has stopping caused the KH and PH to lower ?? thanks Steve

  18. #10
    Senior Member Rank = Sansai davethefish1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smartin View Post
    Hi all,

    I have noticed today that my PH has dropped to 6.5 its usually 7 to 7.5 also noticed the KH which is usually between 3 and 5 is at 1...… never seen it this low before, I wonder if the colder water temps have anything to do with this or because i have stopped trickling in ??
    I have looked back over some previous posts and from the information found it looks like the calculation is 30g of Sodium Bicarbonate per 1000 litres, could someone confirm that this is correct for me please, and i need to add this daily until the KH and PH has risen ? many thanks Steve..


    how are you measuring the ph?
    i found that the test kits i bought are not that accurate, while i was waiting for a new probe for my Aqua digital PH controller.
    found the kits were about 0.5 out.
    or if using a ph monitor have you recently calibrated it?

    i've been dosing sodium bicarbonate for about 2 months now, pond currently uses about 100g - 150g a week, as i'm using pure RO water for top ups and changes.
    cheap as chips on amazon think i paid £12 for 5kg in a bucket, but much cheaper in bulk...£22 for 25kg
    my Kh is 4 but i test every week at that level. ph is running at 7.4-7.6
    You don't have to be a pipefitter to keep koi...
    but it helps...

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  20. #11
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion john1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smartin View Post
    Hi all,

    thanks for your replies so far....

    The ammonia was zero, nitrite 0.2 and nitrate around 20, ph 6.5 and KH 1...... Fish looking well and eating, i have not done a partial water change for a while and have stopped trickling in since the water temp has dropped...... any new water goes through the 3 stage dechlorinator which has brand new cartridges.... my question is now that waste levels are low and water is crystal clear is it essential to trickle in still or do partial water changes ? has stopping caused the KH and PH to lower ?? thanks Steve
    Hi Steve,
    I dont do tricle in some do but not essential, I just leave them now over winter.
    Not sure if stopping would cause the ph to lower but I would check your water supply for kh so you know where you are Steve,mine is zero so I have to add sod/bicarb all the time.
    If your ph is 6.5 I would have thought the kh would be zero.
    John

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  22. #12
    Senior Member Rank = Rokusai smartin's Avatar
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    Hi John and Dave,

    i am using the Colombo pro kit and have done all year, it is quite difficult to be very accurate as you can only compare the sample to a colour chart, the closest I can get too is between 6.5 and 7 as it is a green colour but not really reflective of the colour chart options, the KH used to be one drop which turned the sample blue then at least 3 or 4 drops more to turn the sample yellow, yesterday it only took 1 drop to turn the sample yellow, I added some bicarb and today it took 2 drops to turn the sample yellow, the PH today still looks very similar colour to yesterday, my tap water KH is 3 and the PH looks the same colour as my pond water...… thanks Steve.

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  24. #13
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion john1's Avatar
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    Hi Steve,
    It is hard to check the colour charts as I have to get a second opinion from Mrs so I know what you mean.
    When you put the first drop in and it turns yellow right away that is one drop,if it turns blue on the first drop that is one drop and so on.
    Maybe you know this but some count after the first drop turning blue,if that makes sence.
    Tap at kh3 isnt very high so you will have to keep an eye on it for ever

    But not a problem as you will get used to it,add a bit more tomorrow and slowly raise the kh.
    I keep mine at 3 to 4 in the pond but I would advise you to go a bit higher to get used to it as it can catch you out as it has done to me in the past.
    Keep in touch if any problems,Manky is the water man he taught me.
    John

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  26. #14
    Senior Member Rank = Sansai davethefish1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smartin View Post
    Hi John and Dave,

    i am using the Colombo pro kit and have done all year, it is quite difficult to be very accurate as you can only compare the sample to a colour chart, the closest I can get too is between 6.5 and 7 as it is a green colour but not really reflective of the colour chart options, the KH used to be one drop which turned the sample blue then at least 3 or 4 drops more to turn the sample yellow, yesterday it only took 1 drop to turn the sample yellow, I added some bicarb and today it took 2 drops to turn the sample yellow, the PH today still looks very similar colour to yesterday, my tap water KH is 3 and the PH looks the same colour as my pond water...… thanks Steve.

    that sounds like your testing is pretty accurate mate, but i'd still get a ph monitor if you want to run at a Kh of less than 6
    they are far more accurate and you can easily see how much Ph swing you get over the course of 24hrs.
    luckily i had a ph contoller left over from my reef tank, i just had to buy a new probe and some calibration fluids.

    if Kh started to look unstable, i could hook it up to control a solenoid valve to drip bi carb in below a preset ph value.
    but haven't felt the need, as you get a feel for how much you need to dose with regular Kh tests.
    plus a quick daily glance at the ph monitor.

    as you said that you have stopped doing water changes, even with a Kh of just 3 it would help buffer the pond a little.
    so you'll need to regularly dose bicarb.

    i struggle with the Kh test kits, as they don't react as well at low ranges as they do at the higher end.
    my tap water has a Gh of about 18 and Kh over 10, (one of the reasons i use RO)
    when you do a dropper test at these levels the colour reaction is fast and strong easily detectable.

    ...pity you can't buy a low range Kh test kit that reacts stonger at lower levels.
    Last edited by davethefish1; 28-11-2019 at 11:05 PM.
    You don't have to be a pipefitter to keep koi...
    but it helps...

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  28. #15
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    I have found the Colombo pro kit pretty accurate.

    Sounds like you caught it just in the nick of time.

    I've not suffered from this problem before but in your situation I'd probably be very keen to keep buffering to get PH back to 7 asap, then gradually rise from there.

    Also do some random KH checks on your tap water, maybe at different times of the week or day, just to see if it fluctuates.

    I've never seen my KH drop by more than 1 in the space of a Month.

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  30. #16
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    I have found the Colombo pro kit pretty accurate.

    Sounds like you caught it just in the nick of time.

    I've not suffered from this problem before but in your situation I'd probably be very keen to keep buffering to get PH back to 7 asap, then gradually rise from there.

    Also do some random KH checks on your tap water, maybe at different times of the week or day, just to see if it fluctuates.

    I've never seen my KH drop by more than 1 in the space of a Month so I'd be quite intrigued to find out why it went from 3/5 to 1/2 so quickly, especially at this time of year when feeding is minimal.

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  32. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by davethefish1 View Post
    that sounds like your testing is pretty accurate mate, but i'd still get a ph monitor if you want to run at a Kh of less than 6
    they are far more accurate and you can easily see how much Ph swing you get over the course of 24hrs.
    luckily i had a ph contoller left over from my reef tank, i just had to buy a new probe and some calibration fluids.

    if Kh started to look unstable, i could hook it up to control a solenoid valve to drip bi carb in below a preset ph value.
    but haven't felt the need, as you get a feel for how much you need to dose with regular Kh tests.
    plus a quick daily glance at the ph monitor.

    as you said that you have stopped doing water changes, even with a Kh of just 3 it would help buffer the pond a little.
    so you'll need to regularly dose bicarb.

    i struggle with the Kh test kits, as they don't react as well at low ranges as they do at the higher end.
    my tap water has a Gh of about 18 and Kh over 10, (one of the reasons i use RO)
    when you do a dropper test at these levels the colour reaction is fast and strong easily detectable.

    ...pity you can't buy a low range Kh test kit that reacts stonger at lower levels.

    Easy peasy,

    You can accurately test for very low levels with any drop type KH kit (or GH kit if you want to) by just increasing the sample size.

    E.g. if your normal sample size to give one drop per °KH (or °GH) is 5 ml then double it to 10 ml then each drop will represent 0.5 °KH (or 0.5 °GH) or, if you quadruple the sample size to 20 ml then each drop will represent 0.25 °KH (or 0.25 °GH).
    Last edited by Manky Sanke; 29-11-2019 at 04:43 PM.

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  34. #18
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manky Sanke View Post



    Easy peasy,

    You can accurately test for very low levels by increasing the sample size with any drop type KH kit (or GH kit if you want to) by just increasing the sample size.

    E.g. if your normal sample size to give one drop per °KH (or °GH) is 5 ml then double it to 10 ml then each drop will represent 0.5 °KH (or 0.5 °GH) or, if you quadruple the sample size to 20 ml then each drop will represent 0.25 °KH (or 0.25 °GH).
    Sweet as syd. Simples. Your a star. I never knew that.
    Is it the same when testing for ammonia
    Nitrite and nitrate. With api testing kit.

    Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

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  36. #19
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion john1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manky Sanke View Post



    Easy peasy,

    You can accurately test for very low levels by increasing the sample size with any drop type KH kit (or GH kit if you want to) by just increasing the sample size.

    E.g. if your normal sample size to give one drop per °KH (or °GH) is 5 ml then double it to 10 ml then each drop will represent 0.5 °KH (or 0.5 °GH) or, if you quadruple the sample size to 20 ml then each drop will represent 0.25 °KH (or 0.25 °GH).
    Simples, never thought of that one Syd.
    John

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  38. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by freddyboy View Post
    Sweet as syd. Simples. Your a star. I never knew that.
    Is it the same when testing for ammonia
    Nitrite and nitrate. With api testing kit.

    Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk
    No, only where the precise dosing of a reagent is key to the results shown such as where the number of drops are counted in KH and GH kits. Where other parameters are concerned such as ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, phosphate etc. plenty of reagent is added to ensure complete reaction even if the parameter concentration in the sample is high.

    If the concentration is reduced by doubling the sample, the colour will be the same but less intense. Simple example - a deep red won't change to pink, it will still be the same shade of red but will look "washed out".

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