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Thread: Too much intervention?
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06-09-2014, 11:59 AM #1
Too much intervention?
Is it possible do you think that medications added to Koi ponds on average kill more fish than they cure? I am not saying that in the hands of experts the medications cant be effective, I am just wondering if they are overused and the potential for getting it wrong is rather large.
Is it possible that some parasites (e.g. flukes) are a symptom of other problems (other illness's or environmental problems) rather than the primary cause of an issue - I have heard it said that a few flukes on a fish are not a problem. On the other hand I have also heard that you should scrape several fish to locate a potential parasite problem
Until recently I had a large pond scattered with lily pots and had absolutely no hope of catching a fish. My response to any sulking fish was - 1. check water parameters 2. clean the filter 3. change some water. I have been running this regime successfully for 5 years and never had to resort to any chemical additions.
I have now separated the plants and the koi - so theoretically I should be able to catch my fish. Unfortunately I am completely hopeless at catching fish - unless they are flapping around in less than 6" of water lol. So I am really quite tempted to stick with this regime.
On the other hand, have I just been lucky up to now and have never had flukes etc in the pond. Perhaps I really need to learn how to catch my fish and get set up for doing scrapes etc - just not entirely convinced either way?
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06-09-2014, 12:10 PM #2
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06-09-2014, 12:12 PM #3
Medication
I have never used any medication in my Koi ponds in 20yrs and any problems in time naturally go away.I don't believe in stressing the fish which it does ,just leave to nature.Just keep the water in good condition and there wont be a problem.
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06-09-2014, 12:21 PM #4
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06-09-2014, 01:02 PM #5
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06-09-2014, 01:07 PM #6
I think we have to consider that in many cases "a sick fish is a dead fish."
The reason I say this is that often a problem is not noticed until it's too late to do anything about it.
I do believe in preventative action. We mostly keep fish in a totally artificial environment. I do subscribe to the view that a dose of M&F at the beginning of the season as soon as temperatures allow, won't do any harm and can actually "make us feel better."
Same again before the temperature drops in the autumn.
I do agree that we can cause fish unnecessary stress and chasing them round a pool with a big pan net isn't the ideal situation.
Digressing a bit.
They aren't daft are they?
Mine have no fear if the long handled brush I use sometimes to sweep any stubborn discarded pea skins towards the bottom drain. They can actually get in the way as they try to examine it.
Nor do they fear the small fine mesh net I use for removing wisteria blooms from the surface, or the triangular net I use for any fallen leaves that stay on the surface.
But show 'em the big pan net and they are very wary until they've worked out who is the intended target then the others just get in the way."The information's out there,
You only have to let it in." (Jesse Stone)
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06-09-2014, 01:08 PM #7
there was a trend to use PP every 6 weeks at half a dose for many years. and even now some koi keepers still do this. not so sure that they will admit it mind. any treatment should be the last port of call, and getting the right one for your problem is the key. the way i see it is if your koi are getting ill more than twice a year you must re think how your looking after them. and if your keeping the water right, the filters clean and any new fish added properly quarantined. the rest is is just be luck. after all even we get ill and have no idea how it happens. be a virus or infection. but the way i see it would you leave your own family ill in bed without any kind of medication on the off chance their going to get better, when you have something you could use to help them. not sure if i miss read what you was trying to say mind pip. i do get a bit confused at times
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06-09-2014, 01:10 PM #8
I haven't had any parasite or disease issues in 18 years, I don't use any chemicals in the pond or subject my fish to them.
I believe that if the pond environment is well maintained, balanced and stable then the fish will be healthy and seldom need our intervention.
Unfortunately the hobby has adopted a scrape, seek and treat method in place of the natural processes that balance the pond environment.
Fit and healthy fish have natures best defence against parasites and diseases and that's their mucus, stripping it off with chemicals to remove one or two parasites is pointless as the natural shedding and replacement of mucus looks after that.
I'm not saying there isn't occasional need for intervention but I think a lot of the time treatments can be counterproductive.
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06-09-2014, 01:33 PM #9
No probs.
I'm not suggesting that you dose the pool with M&F and then forget about it.
It's important to spend some time observing them. Just as an old-fashioned farmer would often have been seen leaning on a gate, smoking his pipe and apparently "looking at the day," when in fact he'd be observing his cows looking for any unusual behaviour in any of them.
Yes, it is important to diagnose any problems and act accordingly.
I've always found the biggest killer to have been dropsy, I've never once managed to cure any fish that developed it, even if caught in the early stages."The information's out there,
You only have to let it in." (Jesse Stone)
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06-09-2014, 05:19 PM #10
But what if they didn't want to be treated and you had to chase them round the house and dunk them under water before medicating them?? + you went sure that the medication would help them anyway.
Sometimes bed rest and fresh air (cleaning the pond + extra air) are the best cures - we all want the best for our koi
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06-09-2014, 06:14 PM #11"The information's out there,
You only have to let it in." (Jesse Stone)
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06-09-2014, 06:52 PM #12
Personally after seeing my Shusui nose down and fin up, the first thing I did was try to find out what was wrong, after treating with m fluke it is now swimming around happily again with the others, I would never not try to prevent a death, however on certain occasion I have probably have been over paranoid!
I take my hat off to anyone that can keep high grade koi and not run into problems sooner or later, and I believe parasites are a problem, and will eventually cause more stress to the koi leading to secondary problems which normally is bacterial, once this gets hold of the koi the chances are slight on survival.
As for keeping the pond clean, I do what all other good koi keepers do, regular cleaning feed good food etc but still run into the odd problem, it sounds like you have been very lucky so far.
Regards
Steve
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06-09-2014, 07:24 PM #13
I am sure you are right - I have been lucky - I am not for a moment suggesting you should never treat. I just have the feeling some people may be jumping the gun sometimes and with flukes in particular that they may often be secondary to another problem.
I have had everything in my pond - frogs, newts, toads pigeons, ducks & herons (two at least have discharged their stomach contents into the pond after getting caught up in fishing wire when chased by our dog ) And yet I have apparently never had an issue with flukes - or perhaps I have got them, but in balance with other pond microorganisms that keep them in check - and they don't cause a problem - pure speculation on my part. I don't like the idea of giving preventative doses of chemicals though - I feel it really shouldn't be necessary and could upset the natural balance.
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06-09-2014, 07:32 PM #14
I've always been of the opinion that a cause of infection can be in whatever is "brewing" in the bottom drain and connecting pipe work.
The water being pumped into the filter from my sump pump which is positioned near the top of the sump, always looks almost clear with very little solids in it. But every time I stick the standpipe in the socket and pump to waste 40 gallons of water, (which is twice a week at this time of the year) then release the stand pipe and watch an equivalent volume come rushing up from the depth of the pool, it's quite sobering seeing the amount of crud that comes up and has to be pumped to waste again.
At least I know that twice a week the water in the bottom drain and connecting pipework is as clear as that in the rest of the pool."The information's out there,
You only have to let it in." (Jesse Stone)
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31-10-2024, 09:05 PM #15
I agree with the idea that maintaining a balanced environment in the pond can reduce the need for chemical treatments, especially if the goal is a stable ecosystem. In many cases, prevention through high-quality water and filter maintenance seems to be an effective solution to avoid the additional stress that constant treatment can cause for the fish. Additionally, sometimes parasites can coexist without being a problem, suggesting that natural balance also plays a significant role in pond health.
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01-11-2024, 12:11 PM #16
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01-11-2024, 06:29 PM #17
....and dragging up threads from over a decade ago.
2660 Gallons. 4" Bottom Drain and Skimmer. Draco Solum 16 Drum. Anoxic Filtration. Air lift returns.
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Manky Sanke Thanked / Liked this Post
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01-11-2024, 08:30 PM #18
Always happy syd last time i saw you was when bkks was held at newark showground way back when lol do miss the koi carp magazine tho always got my subscription from there
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02-11-2024, 01:07 PM #19
Blimey that would have been back in 2008. Doesn't time fly when you're having fun? Will you be going the the National at the Heart of England Showground next year?
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02-11-2024, 02:23 PM #20
EA evo Ti 55watt UV
better fit an auto top up. keith