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  1. #1

    Koi Appreciation

    I regret stirring up the debate regarding koi from Japan & Israel. When I talked about a "war" that was with tongue firmly in cheek. Usually a debate on this forum is laced with plenty of banter and good humour.

    That thread, as Miles put it, had turned pretty "sour". I accept responsibility for my part in causing that to happen.

    In fact I was so upset by how things had gone that I decided I would probably cease to put threads and posts on the Forum for the time being; because I felt as if I had spoiled (by introducing that thread) what should be a happy debate as usual. I even considered leaving the Forum altogether.

    If I had simply posted the photo of my new sanke on the Forum and asked for comments that's probably exactly what would have happened. I would probably have had some interesting and helpful feedback.

    However, it must have seemed that I was intent on causing arguments; although this was far from the truth.

    So, if I've caused harm then I apologise unreservedly.

    However, it has not been all bad because its made me think and as I pondered I came up with the following analogy:

    I suppose you could compare koi, in some respects, to jewels:
    There are the not so rare ones, which more people can afford, that are attractive to look at; but can never be compared with the large diamonds for example.

    Jewel owners of the large diamonds may look down on the not so rare jewel owners and think (or say); what's the point in collecting those "worthless" or not so valuable jewels.

    Personally, exhibiting fish at shows doesn't interest me in the least because I enjoy them in their artificial (yet natural) habitat - which are the ponds we keep. I'd love to visit more "other members ponds" especially having had such a great experience with Small-Fry, Cleveland and Life visiting ours in March this year.

    I will never own any large diamonds because I don't have the wealth to buy any. I'm more than happy with my less valuable jewels because they give me great pleasure. I hope that others will get much enjoyment from coming to visit them too!



    ps I'm back though I never really left in the end - it's too addictive!

  2. #2
    its nothing to do with shillings Bryan, a better analogy is pedigree dogs/cats etc. For these there are strict rules of what meets the requirements of each breed.

    From an appreciation standpoint there is never a perfect fish but something to admire in every fish. There is only good skin or not so good skin, good body or not so good and so on.

    there was no angst, we have had this discussion at koi club (we have Andy baker for controversy) do people want to be told their fish is "stunning" or do they want to learn future lessons for their next one.

    next time i see you i'll lend you kokugyu ( a very informative book), it lays out "the rules" on what makes skin on one fish better than another, why one body shape is better for the future than another.

    if you have a bluray you can borrow my choosing tosai vid from Mike at yumekoi-has some good bits on skin quality and body.

    the very best koi don't leave japan and are certainly out of reach of 99.9% of hobbyists and so everything is a compromise.

    learning is 1/2 the fun! keep smiling sir.

  3. #3
    Moderator Rank = Supreme Champion miles41's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Redditch, Worcestershire
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    A frank and honest thread Bryan, well done.
    1630 Gallon raised pond
    4" 'Avenue' bottom drain
    Estro sieve
    Econobead EB60 bead filter
    Sequence 18000 pump, 6000 pump on skimmer line
    Elecro 2kW in-line heater
    Evolution Aqua 70 air pump
    Standard wall skimmer
    Hozelock Vorton 55watt UV
    and some nice koi

  4. #4
    if i loved all things for their looks i would be single lmao . opppsss i am in trouble now. bryan your the sweetest man on here and by no way offended me. or i would think anyone else on here. things can get out of hand at times as one person can read the same book as someone else and find different meaning in the story. i think this can happen in posts on here and other places to. hear is a true story for you. when at work we was at this house for a hour when i went to the lady that lives there and asked if her power was not working. when she answered no i went on to say well then your kettle must be broken. we both had a giggle and i had a nice coffee. my work mate went up the the same lady and said have you get a new kettle yet and she went mad at him for been so cheeky, my point is some times its not what`s been said but the way it`s put across that matters.

    anyway so please your still here so get posting you need to catch me up lol

  5. #5
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Rokusai petew's Avatar
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    May 2014
    Little common East Sussex
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    Hi Bryan.
    mate to be honest i really cannot see why you are so upset on other forums the question you asked about japanese and koi from israel would start world war 3.
    I have seen it get really out of hand.
    Everybody has very different views on koi ,just because some people dont like your koi its not the end of the world and to say to leave the forum is crazy have a look on ttk forum and then you will see how mild that thread was.

  6. #6
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
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    Pete- But the good thing is that this isnt TTK.

    Bryan - Debate and discussion is what things are about and it makes things interesting, without the likes of you sticking up Threads then life would be real dull. There are no winners or losers just the oportunity to knock things around with participatiion from all.

    The frustration is that trying to "help" guide Guys in fish selection is a minefield, probably the most difficult subject of all.

    I used to play a fair bit of Golf and enjoyed the company of many far better players... They were tollerant of my limited skills but would only offer advice or comment, if asked, or put in a position to justify a view point.

    Appreciation of the good points is so easy to forget, and so easy to get transfixed with the bad points...

    I had the brief pleasure of having one fish that was faultless swimming round in the pond until she died a couple of years back ... A simple fish of mind blowing beauty .. Bagging her up was the saddest day in my Koi keeping, I know I'll never find another like her..

    80% of the Koi in my main pond have more demerits than merits, but I can live with that on my budget.

    I digress; moving back on track -

    There are real good Koi available at "sensible" prices and there are "expensive" Koi that are so over priced that it beggers belief.. What I am trying to say here is that whilst budget is a factor within each bracket there are Koi that maybe represent better value for money than others...

    Timing and patience is oft required, the "hunt" is part and parcel of the process and for sure the more you see, the better you get at saying "not quite".. The trap that too many fall into is setting their mind that they are going out to visit their local dealers to buy a Koi... at best they can only secure the "best" that is available...

    At the end of the day Guys need to make their own choices, just like with filters, (some even use Beads!) but believe me it is real hard trying to give help or comment on this without oversteping the line . If I or others did then it was not intended.


  7. #7
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Rokusai petew's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Little common East Sussex
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    [QUOTE=Davej;139334]Pete- But the good thing is that this isnt TTK.

    Hi Dave.
    Yes it is mate could not agree with you more
    But i do like having a look when bored for a good laugh but to be honest its been alot calmer lately.

  8. #8
    Bri, i tell you what.....speaking about jewels ...you are one of them large diamonds and this place wouldn't be the same with out you, so don't you go anywhere!
    David B

  9. #9


    If we all liked the same koi then at the end of the day there would not be enough around to meet our needs. Luck for us some like the colourful ones, some like the pattern ones and others the body shape, not many of us could afford all three together.
    Personally I like a strong body shape torpedo not rugby ball, then clean fresh shiroji while the pattern is last but to be honest if I don't like it I won't buy it. Normally I am luck to find one like that a year in my price bracket but as mentioned earlier the search is the fun bit.

  10. #10
    Everyone on this forum has one thing in common,we are all passionate about koi, sometimes it shows,we are all forever learning and this is a great place for doing that,I don't believe anyone writes on here with malice intended. I look forward to your next thread,with passion

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Kohanke View Post
    Everyone on this forum has one thing in common,we are all passionate about koi, sometimes it shows,we are all forever learning and this is a great place for doing that,I don't believe anyone writes on here with malice intended. I look forward to your next thread,with passion
    That's a very good point; hopefully we all want to listen to each other and to learn in the process.

    My wife is a great fan of Question Time the programme where a wide range of topics are debated between an invited panel and the audience. I watch it too sometimes with interest; and at other times I feel like turning it off!

    The panellists for Question Time are deliberately selected to have different and sometimes strongly opposing views. It's obviously intended to make for good viewing; which it often does. It also provides opportunities for everyone to be better informed in the process.

    However, what I find difficult to cope with is when panellists blatantly fail to listen to each other properly, in the heat of the moment.

    What you get can be thoroughly unpleasant slanging matches where one insult follows another as "childish" debates ensue. Not waiting for each other to finish a point, or sentence, some panellists simply "talk over one another".

    I feel as if I learn nothing in those situations - it becomes a pain for the ears. That's why I appreciate it when a debate can take place on this forum where each others views are given mutual respect - even when they may be diverse.

    In other words when, in stating one's own opinions, to acknowledge the contrary points of view as having validity. This does not mean that we have to be weak; and not to have the courage of our own convictions; rather to show that the opposing points of view have been properly taken into account. Surely that's the mature and beneficial way to have an interesting debate.

    For the most part on this Forum I find that debates are usually balanced with different ideas being exchanged and calmly put across as the threads continue to develop.

    I want our Forum to remain that way; as you say we are all passionate about our koi; and that's the thing that really matters; because we strive to ever improve the way we care for and enjoy them; and to help each other to learn and to advance our enjoyment of what is a fantastic hobby.

    Best wishes to all,


  12. #12
    Bryan I wouldn't be to bothered about a debate getting a bit out of hand to be honest I think a good debate sometimes is a good thing and like you I choose my fish for my own personal pleasure it just happens that all mine are Japanese as that's all my local dealer stocks I think this is a great forum and has a good member base of all types of koi/water keepers I run a car forum and we have people join there just to cause trouble and call members and their cars as they think this is the way to conduct themselves from the safety of their own home where as on here everyone is friendly and get on I would rather moderate /run this forum than the car one so don't feel bad about a thread you started and certainly don't leave I enjoy your posts and joining in where I see fit too



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