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william r8
09-11-2013, 09:25 PM
hi everyone,
having some trouble with my koi. for those of you who don't know, im very new to koi and got my first fish on Tuesday, a mixed box from new forest koi. the fish were delivered by apc overnight and one of the smaller fish was dead upon arrival. there was also an ill looking koi which didn't make it. the following day i lost 4 of the koi which seemed completely healthy a few hours before when i checked on them. i then found out that the koi were only around 20 weeks old, so i followed the advice of new forest koi and brought the fish inside. i managed to move some of my cichlids around to free a tank for them. the tank is well established and the water is turned over 8-9 times an hour by internal and external filters. yesterday the fish were fine, up until about 10 pm when i left them for half an hour and came back to 2 dead fish and a few others not looking great. i took the dead fish out and did a water change. today there are quite a few of them sitting around at the bottom with clamped fins, and a lot of them seem to be fine one minute, then just freeze for several seconds and start floating to the top. i have also noticed a few of them flicking and the odd one has faded. what is wrong with them? at first i thought it was stress but half of them have settled in fine.

14crazychris
09-11-2013, 09:44 PM
Could possibly be parasites. I would take a scrape if possible ( only if you have a microscope) . Otherwise I would add some salt. This will help the fishes immune system and also help them relax. I would defiantly contact new forest koi, they may come out to have a look free of charge. Definatly get a complete refund.they could have been tossed around in the box which made them stressed. I add 10kg to my 10,000 litre pond so I would go with 1kg per 1000 litres.
Hope this helps.

dogsbody
09-11-2013, 09:50 PM
what is your pond set up. Size, Filtration, water perameters. i.e. PH. Nitrate, Ammonia, etc. Water temp. THE FISH WERE VERY YOUNG TO BE SUBJECTED TO THE CHANGES IMPOSED UPON THEM. It would seem to me that they went into shock rather than infected by a sickness of some sort. It is not a good time of year to install fish into a new situation as they are starting to close down for the winter, even mature fish dont like lower temps. I am heating my pond now. The learning curve with koi is massive. It's not so much a learning curve, but rather like hitting a brick wall. This site was my salvation. But DONT GIVE UP the hobby is rewarding, when you start to get on top of it it is worth while (Potentially expensive YES.) but worth while. There are some clever people on this site. Ask your questions, you will get answers, you will progress, You will get the satisfaction I have obtained from seeing your fish progress. Best of luck mate. P.S. Put your details on the site you may have a member close to hand to offer advice.

william r8
09-11-2013, 09:59 PM
thanks, I have a good microscope but I've never taken a scrape so I will look into that now. would aquarium salt be okay? otherwise it will be tomorrow at the earliest before I can get some PDV. i will send new forest koi an email later.

14crazychris
09-11-2013, 10:11 PM
I just use water purifier salt it's £8 per 25kg so great value but it has to be 100% natural with no chemicals. I'm not shore in the difference in aquarium salt but it sounds ok. I learnt how to scrape my koi what I do is.
1. Catch the fish in the net
2. Put it in a koi bowl or similar (if there small a washing up bowl is fine)
3. Spin the fish a couple of times to disorientate it
4. Hold the fish firmly but not hard and turn it upside down against the bowl
5. Use a suitable implement to scrape the fish from head to tail ( get around the gills and fins ( sometimes i just scrape my hand as most of the slime ends up here)
6. I use a piece of curved plastic ( i cut it out from a dishwasher tablet box) and made shore it was clean and not sharp.
7. Scrape the mucus into the middle of the glass slide with the cover slip
8. Place the cover slip on top and inspect.

Once you know how to do it it's easy and you can predict the fishes next movements when there trying to slip out of your hands.
Good luck hope this helps.

william r8
09-11-2013, 10:31 PM
okay, I will try and do a scrape later. my water parameters are:
ph inbetween 7.5 and 8
no2- 0
no3- under 20
gh- 10
I did suspect the first few may have died of shock and/or stress. after 2 days would they be over shock? and would the fish have showed symptoms right away or after a few hours, as opposed to 48 hours later? sorry if they are silly questions. I am quite heartbroken at the moment but im pretty sure I wont give up!!! these koi are some of the most amazing fish ive kept, just a shame that they aren't well :(

14crazychris
09-11-2013, 10:42 PM
I am not a very experienced however I do know a lot. This happend to me when I purchased some second hand fish. One fish died however all the others where fine. One of my fish was so streesd that it layed on its side like it was dead. We even thought it was it was dead at one point. Week after week it started to get better and after about a month the fish was fine. All I did was add some salt and keep an eye on it. You parameters seem fine. I'm shore they are not the problem it's just stress. As it's stress I would just leave the fish alone. When my fish where like this i avoided going near the pond and just left them be. I will happily try and answers any other questions you have as I was in the same positions the beginning of the year.
Thanks chris

william r8
09-11-2013, 10:56 PM
thanks chris, I will add some salt now.

14crazychris
09-11-2013, 11:16 PM
Good luck hope it works and hope you manage to save your koi.
Keep us updated on what's happening. Maybe adds some pictures so we can identify if anything else needs to be done?
Thanks chris

Darrens koi
09-11-2013, 11:41 PM
Sorry to hear this I know how you feel when you loose fish and can't find anything wrong I'm also quite new to this hobby and have had more than my fair share of problems this yr and lost a few fish

I have a sanke that I'm leaving at my local dealers till spring due to my pond being unheated and at the time was at just over 10 degrees but was advised it was getting a bit cold to be moving it and I had just got over a bacterial infection in my pond/fish so thought it safer to leave it where I know it's safe till the pond heats up again

Hope you get sorted, are you using a de chlorinated water in the inside tank

colin machin
10-11-2013, 08:39 AM
hi sorry to hear of your problem your fist port of call is to contact your supplier and follow there advice that said ,i would keep fry are very small fish in a heated tank well filtered and ad salt at 1/2 ounce per gall (dish washer salt is very good) ive done this with fry very successfully I DONT USE SALT WITH ANY OTHER MEDICATION ONLY ON ITS OWN it dose seem to calm them down ,my own thoughts only .

william r8
10-11-2013, 12:00 PM
hi, the fish aren't looking too bad this morning, still a few at the bottom and I ended up separating one as it was struggling to swim and one of the other fish seemed to be bullying it. the water in the tank is dechlorinated. i will try and get some pics later...

william r8
10-11-2013, 06:20 PM
Just lost another one :( the fish seemed perfectly healthy an hour before

colin machin
10-11-2013, 06:49 PM
have you been in touch with the supplier if your water perimeters are ok i would do a small water change 20% heat the water and ad salt at 1/2 ounce a gallon (dishwasher salt Tesco )

william r8
10-11-2013, 07:27 PM
I've just sent the supplier an email, ive been doing small water changes every day but I will do a 20 percent water change now and I will try and get some dishwasher salt tomorrow. what temperature would you recommend I heat it to? they are currently kept at 21 degrees c.

colin machin
10-11-2013, 09:30 PM
hi sorry your having your problems i know you say your water perimeter are ok but if you have only recently moved them in side to a tank i doubt your filter is matured yet ,salt will help to reduce any nitrite for the moment keeping koi is very rewarding but all so a very long learning process don't be disheartened and try and be better prepared next time we all think we know best but we are all learning . it can be very interesting to have young fish in doors over winter to keep us interested . my own preparation is to heat my tank to 20 c put two small fish in (can be gold fish )and put filter media in to the filter from my mature pond filter run it for a few weeks and keep on taking water perimeters when all is ok i order my koi 10 ,2to3 ins fish whilst i am waiting for delivery i add half ounce dishwasher salt per gallon it helps to settle the new fish in i have had very good results with this and had no losses this year and all are now in the pond ,but remember if you do water changes you are diluting the salt hope this helps as it works for me .good luck colin

Davej
10-11-2013, 10:59 PM
Hiya

SCRAPE is a priority.

Immediate thought of Whitespot being a strong possibility given the stress / temp changes that the fish have been through so need to rule this out.

Whitespot are about the easiest critters to see on a slide.

Personally I would hold off on the salt until I had scraped as it could compromise your choice of meds.

PDV salt will be available from any Koi dealer.

In a QT situation I will normally add salt of 1/2 oz to the gallon when adding new fish to the Tank and then dilute this out over 4 or 5 days, then scrape and see what is around, but you are a few days in so for the time being at least I would hold off until scrapes done.

Dave

william r8
11-11-2013, 02:11 PM
Hi, the supplier got back in touch and basically said that the cause was delivery and I wasn't doing anything wrong. They told me to get back in touch in a few days with the number of losses and they'll send replacement fish or a refund.

colin machin
11-11-2013, 05:21 PM
that's a good result but still read up on the use of salt .i would still use 1/2ouce per gallon and reduce it over time when things start to settle

william r8
13-11-2013, 07:18 PM
I did put some salt in, so far today I've lost 2, including one of my favourites! And I lost a fair few yesterday and the day before :( I was intending on keeping koi, not killing them!!! Maybe the hobby isn't for me.... I think I'm just gonna cut my losses and stay with cichlids.

miles41
13-11-2013, 08:05 PM
I wouldn't 'give up' William, and think DaveJ gave the best advice. Your supplier seems half-hearted with their advice and salt isn't a 'magical' fix all solution.

Only scrapes can really identify if any bugs are present and then the correct medication can then be applied. It is always too temping to 'guess' and think you're doing the right thing, but you can do more harm than good.

william r8
13-11-2013, 09:07 PM
I think I might have found part of the problem! I've just discovered that one of the fish has a hairy white lump above its gill which looks like some kind of fungal infection. It's only just appeared and none of the other fish seem to have symptoms.

Davej
13-11-2013, 09:21 PM
It's a frustrating response from a livestock supplier.

Many years ago I had something similar, bought 4 small Koi from a local dealer.

One quickly developed a bacterial infection, we spoke to the Dealer, "Dont worry we will let you have another" was the response, "we would prefer to know how to treat it" was our reply.

To cut the story short "SickNote" recovered and we had started on the long road of trying to become Koi keepers.

Sorry but a scrape is needed, if water is OK then I suspect if casualties are continuing the problem will lie there.

Dont give up, sorting this will give you significant personal satisfaction.

Dave