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JAY76
12-01-2013, 10:35 AM
hi going to put a ro unit on my pond in the next few weeks when its been made,just looking for tips on what to keep an eye on with water readings and how fast to change water as fish will not be feed till march.The main reason i am going with the ro is i have hard water and fish are not growing that well and fish look old long before they should so basically the tap water is no good for koi ,looking to add a few new better fish this year so need better water to sea them inprove and grow,thats the plan.
any tips wellcome good or bad
thanks jason

chris 1974
12-01-2013, 01:27 PM
I there my water is hard in h.pool Ph is at 8.2 and my fish are doing very well
and grow very well hard water should only affect the intensity of red in the Koi and want stop them from growing I am stuck to Way people use Ro on the ponds as water that is under 7Ph can crash and go to low verey fast I
use a filter that removes chlorine and chloramines as long as you water is about 7-8 Ph then Way bother or dose some one know a good resin way they use RI water your Koi will grow faster if you change water at 5% a day and feed about 6-12 times a day as long as your filter will cope and the wormer the water the faster they will grow do not over feed in winter and when feeding I don't stick to one tiyp of food I get couple and mix then together hope this helps

JAY76
12-01-2013, 02:06 PM
i take on board what you are saying my ph is 8 but the tds out of my tap water is 600 ish and my pond runs at 660 -700 tds which is to high for keeping koi,from all i have read ro water helps skin,reds and growth and my local koi dealer (coastal koi)has run one of his ponds last year on ro and the growth rates are mad but he did feed 18 times a day.most of all hoping for better skin quality and may be less shimes as with my water its a waste of time buying kohakus as they look like poor quality sankes with in three months ,growth and reds would be bonus

MonkeyHarris
12-01-2013, 02:47 PM
Have a look on the Yumekoi website under magazine articles. Mike Snadden has written several articles on it they're really well written and very informative.

If you have water with a high kh you can control the mix manually or with ph controller so you don't have to worry so much. From what I've read though it does require you to keep a close eye on it either way. And changing the ph should be done very slowly. Perhaps 0.2 a day but that is guess, someone else will confirm that. I think the desired ph is around 7.1-7.2 for most. Hopefully Dave, Al etc. will weigh in with those answers :D

Good luck. I'd like to hear your opinion on ro once you're up and running. I plan to do it myself at some point.

JAY76
12-01-2013, 03:45 PM
thanks for the info on yume koi website i have spent hours looking through that over christmas and he nows his stuff when it comes down to koi and water the only shame for me is i live to far away to speak to him in person.
it should be up and runing by the end of the month,so going to go slow with the change to keep the fish happy ,the ph controller is something i am looking at now so anyone whos got one would be nice to here how they work.

will keep you posted on how the ro is to live with and if thekoi improve

thanks jason

chris 1974
13-01-2013, 01:56 PM
that it very interesting I will defo look in to this more tell me how it goes for you mate as the only problem I have is the intensity of the red color but if it helps defo interested

JAY76
13-01-2013, 02:14 PM
Hi Chris Will Keep You Post As The Year Goes On,just Hope Its Not To Much Work Keeping An Eye On Water Reading But Most Say The First Few Months Is Getting Used To Runing It ,should Have Ph Controller On The Pond As Well To Make Thing Easier :)
Jason

go54nke
13-01-2013, 03:12 PM
Hi Jason,

I havn't been running RO as long as some of the guys on here, Gazza or Davej are the guys who have been running it for ever.

I added it to mine as when I started the new pond up I wasn't happy with the pH, I knew this would settle over time but needed to give it a helping hand hence the reason for adding the RO unit.

With your pH at 8 and tds 600ish RO is the way to go. You need to know your KH and GH too, both from your pond and tap/top up water. As with anything Koi, slow and steady is the way to go, don't try/expect to get where you want in a few weeks. You will probably be able to run pure RO into the pond without mixing or adding bicarb for quite a while until you get the parameters down (depending on your KH).

Once you get to where you want you then need to either mix the RO water with top up water, or dose with bicarb on a regular basis or use a contoller to do either of those 2 for you. KH is the key to all this, but stocking levels, amount of food fed and percentage of water changes all play a part.

JAY76
13-01-2013, 04:30 PM
Thanks For That Info,thats What A Lot People Have Said My Kh Is Low 1 So Now Making Ph Controller Ready For The Ro As Going To Need It ,i Am In No Rush As Need To Keep Ph Stable Even If Its Going To Come Down To 7-7.2 And Tds Of120 To 160 Ish Thats The Plan,hoping Dave Or Gazza See This And Add There Knowledge Would Be Great.

Jason

chris 1974
13-01-2013, 07:00 PM
I have used ro for discus fish in the shop and marine but set the ro to to drops
per second and dripped it through oyster shells in a trickle tip filter this helps get the tds lower and helps keep the water stable ie kh and ph does any one think that it will work on the pond in the same way just a though have a ph pen
in the shop and it never moves ones in a blue moon the ph goes down but slowly and I just change some of the oyster shells but it dose stop it from chrasing and droping fast

Davej
13-01-2013, 09:32 PM
Thanks For That Info,thats What A Lot People Have Said My Kh Is Low 1 So Now Making Ph Controller Ready For The Ro As Going To Need It ,i Am In No Rush As Need To Keep Ph Stable Even If Its Going To Come Down To 7-7.2 And Tds Of120 To 160 Ish Thats The Plan,hoping Dave Or Gazza See This And Add There Knowledge Would Be Great.

Jason

Hi Jason

First thing what is the KH, GH and TDS of both the pond and the supply water?

Not sure if I reading the above quote right? KH 1?? If so at first blush I am struggling to equate this to the TDS and pH figures.

Will have a think through a bit more when you post the numbers.

Dave

JAY76
13-01-2013, 10:51 PM
the tap water readings are ph7-7 tds600ish gh 14 kh6
the pond are ph 8 tds 660 gh13 kh1
i can't get my head round the kh being low because the ph is stable and changing ten % of water daliy ,for three weeks and the kh as not move its just lowered the tds, hope this helps if you need any other details just let me now the pond has been runing three years
thanks jason

Davej
13-01-2013, 11:15 PM
the tap water readings are ph7-7 tds600ish gh 14 kh6
the pond are ph 8 tds 660 gh13 kh1
i can't get my head round the kh being low because the ph is stable and changing ten % of water daliy ,for three weeks and the kh as not move its just lowered the tds, hope this helps if you need any other details just let me now the pond has been runing three years
thanks jason

First off I think your TDS meter needs recalibrating, I'd be expecting to see the TDS of between 250 and 350 from the numers you are giving for GH KH of your supply - unless theres a whole heap of something else in the supply water.

Are the readings straight out of the tap?

If your KH has stayed at 1 despite adding more than twice the volume of the pond over 3 weeks of KH 6 supply water then the pond and system is burning KH at an alarming rate, and my take is that until you get to the bottom of this the very last thing you want to do is start running in RO.

More spec on the pond, temps, filters, stocking may help narrow things down.

Dave

MonkeyHarris
13-01-2013, 11:48 PM
What could cause this Dave? Other than running a dastardly bead filter :D

JAY76
14-01-2013, 12:29 AM
Hi Dave, The Ponds 6800 Gallon
Filters Are Nexus 300 Off One Drian,sieve Then Eb60 Beadfilter Off Second Drian,then Bakki Shower Off Skimmer Line Allso There Is Ozone Runing But As Of Last Week I Have Change The Bead For A Second Bakki Shower Off The Sieve And Turned Off Ozone,also Got 55watt Uv Runing As Well.
Not Sure If The Bead And Ozone Are Burning Kh,the Pond As Allway Had A Low Kh But My Local Koi Dealer Said As Long The Ph Is Stable It Would Be Fine So I Have Never Tryed To Adjust It,my Own Fault For Leaving It.
The Pond Has 34 Koi From 25cm To Over 80 Cm There Not Over Feed And Are Now On There Winter Break So No Food Till March,as For My Ph And Tds Readings They Were Off My New Hanna Monitor That Was Recalibrated Last Week, Also Check Ph And Tds With Pens All Gave The Same Results, The Tds Was A Few Points Apart Only 5.
,how Can You A Lower Tds Reading In The Pond When The Tap Water Is High As No Matter How Much Water I Change It Will Not Go Below 600tds? Water Temps Are Heated To 11.5 C ,tested Water At Tap And After Carbon Filter Ph Was The Same And The Tds Was A Little Lower After Carbon Filter.

Hope This Helps
Thanks Jason

MonkeyHarris
14-01-2013, 12:58 AM
I don't entirely understand why but beads burn kh faster than normal filters. I think it's down to air or lack of it in the bio area. I guess I'll have the same problem as you as I'm running an eb50. Maybe you should call your water supplier and get your tap checked as there must be something else in there. That's the highest tds from a tap I've heard of.

JAY76
14-01-2013, 08:25 AM
hi paul
do you have trouble with low kh runing your bead ,as for tap water on one of keven ellis vids gazza from on here said his tds from the tap was higher than mine thats why he is using ro
thanks jason

Davej
14-01-2013, 08:32 AM
Hi Dave, The Ponds 6800 Gallon
Filters Are Nexus 300 Off One Drian,sieve Then Eb60 Beadfilter Off Second Drian,then Bakki Shower Off Skimmer Line Allso There Is Ozone Runing But As Of Last Week I Have Change The Bead For A Second Bakki Shower Off The Sieve And Turned Off Ozone,also Got 55watt Uv Runing As Well.
Not Sure If The Bead And Ozone Are Burning Kh,the Pond As Allway Had A Low Kh But My Local Koi Dealer Said As Long The Ph Is Stable It Would Be Fine So I Have Never Tryed To Adjust It,my Own Fault For Leaving It.
The Pond Has 34 Koi From 25cm To Over 80 Cm There Not Over Feed And Are Now On There Winter Break So No Food Till March,as For My Ph And Tds Readings They Were Off My New Hanna Monitor That Was Recalibrated Last Week, Also Check Ph And Tds With Pens All Gave The Same Results, The Tds Was A Few Points Apart Only 5.
,how Can You A Lower Tds Reading In The Pond When The Tap Water Is High As No Matter How Much Water I Change It Will Not Go Below 600tds? Water Temps Are Heated To 11.5 C ,tested Water At Tap And After Carbon Filter Ph Was The Same And The Tds Was A Little Lower After Carbon Filter.

Hope This Helps
Thanks Jason

Hiya

Just a quickie

Can you confirm whether the 10% you have been adding for the last three weeks is RO or supply, I had assumed it was the later and that you were intending to add RO rather than had already added it.

1 dgh is around 18ppm - the maths doesnt stack up on the TDS.

Dave

JAY76
14-01-2013, 09:04 AM
hi it was supply water the ro unit is being made this week ,my tds was over 800 when i first test it three weeks ago my koi dealer said it a little high but some of his ponds are 600 if he feeds the koi,not sure as to keep changing water or stop?as with the bead now not in use weather the kh will rise
thanks jason

chris 1974
14-01-2013, 12:51 PM
well mate not spritzed you need your water sorted out that is the hi,its tds
I have ever see you should come plan to the water Bord and see if they will
give you a ro if you run a ro the cartridges will meed change a lot if they can supply you a pr-ea filter your ro will not get such a hammering .

JAY76
14-01-2013, 02:23 PM
hi chris i have spoken to them and all they say is the water is drinkable and keeping koi is not there problem so no joy there.one of my mate lost ten big fish after doing a big water change a few years ago and they got some money out of the them as they said sometimes they add chemicals to keep pipes clean.funny thing i test my tds at dinner time and it was 525 tds so i think my tap water is s##t
jason

MonkeyHarris
14-01-2013, 02:57 PM
hi paul
do you have trouble with low kh runing your bead ,as for tap water on one of keven ellis vids gazza from on here said his tds from the tap was higher than mine thats why he is using ro
thanks jason

My pond's only being up and running with my bead for 3 months and barely fed in that time so too early to tell really. I'm also waiting for my tds meter to turn up so I don't know that yet either. Sod's law says it'll be higher than yours :D

Davej
14-01-2013, 03:06 PM
Hiya Jason

On the basis that your KH appears to be an issue, I tend to favour the Nutrafin KH test kit, one drop is 10ppm on the KH and 1 drop 20ppm on the GH for these but you can double up the sample size to get one drop per 5ppm.

Lets look at the TDS of the incoming first.

Your water isn’t what I would consider as that hard from the GH readings.

GH is the salts in the water, mainly calcium and magnesium, its measured in terms of Calcium but this will include the magnesium content.

As I’ve said previously 1 degree is a smidge under 18ppm so your 14 degrees GH gives you around 252ppm.

The KH content is carbonates, if its calcium derived then the TDS may well be within the GH readings, if its derived from adding Bicarbonate of Soda (which is not the case here) it would be in addition to the GH.

Worst case however would be an extra 6 x 18 so 108ppm.

So I would expect the TDS of your supply to be somewhere between 252 and 360ppm.

One of the problems with TDS meters is that they need recalibrating every now and again, and with some meters the calibration is done at circa 1500 which sometimes gives some strange results at the range we are normally playing in. Best way to check is to get some calibration fluid in the 200-300 range and cross check. If you have access to RO water you can mix it up at various concentrations with supply and then check that the readings make sense across a broad range.

In Summary - My guess is that the TDS meter is giving you duff data.

On the water change side of things at 10% a day for 3 weeks I make it that you have effectively replaced 200% of the pond volume in supply water over 21 days.

So basically you have 1 glass of pond water at KH1, and 2 glasses of supply at KH6, without any burn I would expect the end result to be KH4 - But its still at KH1, so effectively the extra KH that you have added by the water changes has only matched the depletion. Now given the absence of feed etc I’d be concerned at this.

Some filters tend to consume more KH than others, or probably more correctly the effects of the bacteria feeding consumes more KH. The cleaner the filter is kept the lower the depletion but the filters with the absence of feed would not have been under any great load so KH consumption should be relatively low.

My thoughts tend to be in the direction that the filters are having to work too hard for the load on them or there is something that wanting to make the water acidic.

Sorry a few more questions;

As to the O3, how big a unit and where was it returning? Ie was it returning pre bio or post Bio?

Is the pond planted?

What are the Ammonia and Nitrite levels?

Dave

JAY76
14-01-2013, 03:52 PM
hi dav
there are no plants and the o3is a 2gram unit and returns after bio the nitrite and ammonia show nil readings on my nt labs kit and thats what i have used for kh and gh readings.i did at salt to my pond last year it was a mistake not sure if that would increase tds i can check thd salt level if any tonight and let you know
thanks for your help
jason

JAY76
14-01-2013, 04:47 PM
Hi Paul
Lets Hope You Water Is Ok Not To Sure Whats Giong On With Mine,there More To Water Than I Throught But I Am Keen To Learn And Hope At The End Of This Problem My Fish Are Heathly Thats My Goal,
Jason

JAY76
14-01-2013, 05:18 PM
Hi Dave
I Have Check Pond For Salt And The Reading Is Zero The Same As My Tap Water,going To Order A Nutrafin Test Kit And Try That.

I Have Been Told That My High Tds And Low Kh Is Due To Not Enough Water Changes Throuhgh The Year,something I Am Working On ,cleaning The Nexus Every Two Days And The Seive Once A Day And As For Showers Was Told To Leave Them Alone Aswell As Flushing Bottom Drians Every Other Day,not Sure I Can Do Anymore As Pond Floor Is Clean With The Air Drians.

The Fish Have Only Stop Feeding Last Weekend So Hoping The Kh Will Rise With Only A Small Load On Filters, If You Have Any To Add To My Pond Maintenance To Improve It Don't Be Shy Let Me Know As Your Fish And Pond Look Great From Some Of The Pictures On Hear

As For To Much Load On Filters I Thought I Was Over Filtered With My Set Up
Once Again Thanks For Your Help
Jason

eds
14-01-2013, 06:56 PM
Can you check the bead filter and nexus aren't holding detritus anywhere out of sight? For the nexus this means checking under the bio section (it can collect under the air line if you haven't moved it down) by turning the air off and scooping media off or aside to look.

For the bead it means checking there isn't a load of detritus in the beads as some makes don't seem to clean as reliably than others.

Not a job for the current temperatures perhaps!

Dave's dead right about your test results - something isn't stacking up here.

JAY76
14-01-2013, 07:31 PM
hi i will look at nexus tomorrow i have been draining bio bit last week to remove any rubbish but will check again as for bead it was took off line last week and a bakki shower is now runing ,but will have a look at bead at it to see if its clean
thanks for the advice jason

Gazfish
14-01-2013, 07:47 PM
Hi Jason,

I think like the other guys there does seem to be something going on here and will be best found and sorted out before you start to run RO.

Many think they have enough filtration but do not go on what the manufactures say as these are never tested in heavy stocked koi ponds with lots of food.

You may well find that your bio side of the pond has not settled down as this can take some time especially if you have been carrying out modifications to the system.

What type Bakki Showers are you running ?

It will be interesting to see if you have got some build up or if your test equipment is off.

I know it all sounds like a lot but stick with it as water is the key to healthy happy fish :)

JAY76
14-01-2013, 08:10 PM
Hi Gazza,

Thanks For Chipping In With Your Views,the Bakki Showers Are The Same As Yours But With Crystal Bio In ,hoping To Add Bhm In The Future .

I Am Hoping To Move On Some Koi In The Spring To Help The Filters And Give My Best Koi More Room And Better Water With Less Numbers

I Am Now Going To Check Nexus Is Clean As Runing Out Of Ideas As The Rest Of The Pond Is Clean ,in A Way It Would Be Nice To Find That The Nexus Is The Problem So I Can Keep An Eye On It For The Future

As For Your Mutts They Look Great,

Thanks
Jason

Gazfish
14-01-2013, 08:13 PM
Hi Jason,

Thanks for the kind words and i will let the mutts know :)

What size pumps are you running on the Nexus and showers ?

JAY76
14-01-2013, 09:07 PM
Hi Gazza

The Nexus Pump Is A Eco S 10000
The Showers Are Eco S 20000
I Am Looking At A Way Of Putting More Over The Showers One Shower Is Ten Days old And The Other As Been Runing 2 Years
Nexus Is Over Four Years Old Not Sure If This Helps

Just Had A Look At Nexus,drianed It Down On Bio Side And Found Very Little Rubbish I Did Clean It A Few Weeks Ago I Have Not Check Bead As It Outside And Not Runing On The Pond So If Thats The Problem Things Should Improve With A Bit Luck.

Just One More Thing What Are You Using To Check Tds And Ph As I Am Using A Hanna One That Does Both,its New And May Be Fautly But Tds Pen Reads The Same As Hanna.

Thanks Jason

Davej
14-01-2013, 09:36 PM
Jason

Hannas normally calibrate at 1500, you can cross check with 240ppm solution.

TDS calibration solution RO marine meter ph | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TDS-calibration-solution-RO-marine-meter-ph-/290566567590?pt=UK_Pet_Supplies_Fish&hash=item43a71df6a6)

Dave

JAY76
14-01-2013, 09:49 PM
thanks dave just order that so hope to check tds meter at weekend and kh
jason

chris 1974
15-01-2013, 01:34 PM
HOPE you get it sorted out some good info on this link. my water is grate sins
adding my Bakki filter I like this type of filter. and have had no problems with
main as you have said you have two Bakki filters now and a nexus I think you should have enuth filter media for your pond wons the temp go up your Bactria will kicking and your water should improve

JAY76
15-01-2013, 05:56 PM
Hi Chris ,the Bakki Showers Are Great Hope The Second One Will Help The Pond When It Matures Going To Hold Back On Ro Unit For A Few Weeks At Lest And Let The Pond Settle Down.looking At Smaller Ro Unit And May Be Mix Ro And Tap Water As This Will Give Me A Stable Ph And Better Tds And Use The Ro To Improve The Water I Put In The Pond Rather Than Go All Out Ro
Cheers Jason

JAY76
16-01-2013, 01:41 PM
HI Dave,
the tds calibration solution turn up today so recalibreted the tds probe and it needed ajusting so new readings are tap water tds340 and pond tds 480 not sure if helps the maths add up with my water just waiting for new kh test kit to turn up then will let you know what they are

hope this sheds some light on things,allso do you use the same calibration solution to test your tds meter?

thanks jason

Davej
16-01-2013, 02:36 PM
Hi Jason

340 out of the tap is a lot more in line with the GH/KH numbers.

I'd be thinking that the pond will still have an element on salt in it so that may well account for the higher number.

lets see what numbers are when you get the new KH kit.

Meanwhile keep the water changes going

dave

JAY76
16-01-2013, 02:55 PM
Hi Dave
Will Do What I Can With The Water Changes Its A Bit Cold So Just Doing Smaller Water Changes As The Boiler Will Be On All Day As It Below Freezing


Cheers Jason

Davej
16-01-2013, 05:02 PM
Hi Dave
Will Do What I Can With The Water Changes Its A Bit Cold So Just Doing Smaller Water Changes As The Boiler Will Be On All Day As It Below Freezing


Cheers Jason

Hiya

No stress, things will hopefully be a bit clearer when you can cross check the KH in the pond.

On the calibration fluid, I keep a stock of various solutions on the shelf just so if things look weird I can investigate.

Dave

Gazfish
16-01-2013, 05:16 PM
That sounds more like it and i would also say you have probably got some salt in there as it takes many many water changes to remove it.

JAY76
16-01-2013, 08:05 PM
Hi Dave,
When The Weather Warms Up I Will Get Back To Ten % Water Changes A Day Or A Trickle 24/7 For A Few Weeks .i Did Notice The My Hanna Tds Monitor Was A Long Way Of The Test Solution So Needed A Big Adjustment So Will Look In To Finding Some Other Cailbration Solotions Of A Diffent Range To Keep A Check On Things.
Only Seen A Few Pics Of Your Fish And Pond On Hear, What Sort Of Set Are You Runing On The Filter Side?
Thanks
Jason


Hi Gazza,
Things Are Looking Better, So I Hope Alls Ok By March Ish Ready For A New Season ,my Mates Taking 6 Of My Old Mutts So That Should Help The Filters And The Rest Of The Mutts.
What Did You Think Of The Turn Over On My Bakki Showers ,as No Sure If It Enough Water Going Over Them?
Thanks
Jason

Davej
16-01-2013, 08:26 PM
Hi Dave,
When The Weather Warms Up I Will Get Back To Ten % Water Changes A Day Or A Trickle 24/7 For A Few Weeks .i Did Notice The My Hanna Tds Monitor Was A Long Way Of The Test Solution So Needed A Big Adjustment So Will Look In To Finding Some Other Cailbration Solotions Of A Diffent Range To Keep A Check On Things.
Only Seen A Few Pics Of Your Fish And Pond On Hear, What Sort Of Set Are You Runing On The Filter Side?
Thanks
Jason


Hi Gazza,
Things Are Looking Better, So I Hope Alls Ok By March Ish Ready For A New Season ,my Mates Taking 6 Of My Old Mutts So That Should Help The Filters And The Rest Of The Mutts.
What Did You Think Of The Turn Over On My Bakki Showers ,as No Sure If It Enough Water Going Over Them?
Thanks
Jason

Jason

My objective was to get the "bits" complimenting each other

So I run clean water fed showers with BHM in them. They provide decent Bio filtration at low KH with little KH burn and thus make very skinny KH and pretty neutral pH a lot easier.

Dave

Gazfish
16-01-2013, 08:40 PM
Hi Jason,

Bakki Showers love a good flow and some like a mega flow over them but i think it all depends on how clean the water is and how much BHM you have in them.

So less BHM is less flow and more BHM is more flow.

I run a vortex system off my bottom drain on a 10,000lte and a single Bakki Shower which is stuffed with BHM and this has two 16,000 pumps coming from the skimmer and a mid water feed so they get fairly clean water over them.

JAY76
16-01-2013, 08:49 PM
I Have Been Thinking About Removing My Nexus And Replacing With A Third Shower As They Work So Well ,this Time With Bhm , Going To Add Bhm To My Old Showers As Well.

JAY76
16-01-2013, 08:55 PM
Hi Gazza
Is All That Water Going Over One Shower?
My New Shower Has Clean Water Going Over It And Second One Is Off Skimmer Line So Not Two Dirty.

Gazfish
16-01-2013, 08:58 PM
Hi Jason,

No the 10,000 goes directly back to the pond and the two 16,000's go over the showers as i like having two systems just in case.

I forgot to say my pond is 4500 gallons.

JAY76
16-01-2013, 09:18 PM
Hi Gazza
So You Turn Over Your Pond Every 45 Mins Over The Shower Just Getting Some Ideas For Mine And Thats All Year Round.
As My Pond Is About The Same As Yours On Turn Over Plus The Nexus Is Runing As Well,i Also Have A Spare Pump That Feeds Heater And Back To Low Level Return Was Thing About Putting That Over One Of The Shower In The Summer As Heater Is Off As Pond Is Inclosed So Gets To Hot,some Days 40c in the koi house
Cheers Jason

JAY76
16-01-2013, 09:21 PM
Hi Gazza
So You Turn Over Your Pond Every 45 Mins Over The Shower Just Getting Some Ideas For Mine And Thats All Year Round.
As My Pond Is About The Same As Yours On Turn Over Plus The Nexus Is Runing As Well,i Also Have A Spare Pump That Feeds Heater And Back To Low Level Return Was Thing About Putting That Over One Of The Shower In The Summer As Heater Is Off As Pond Is Inclosed So Gets To Hot,some Days 40c in the koi house.
Cheers Jason

Gazfish
16-01-2013, 09:52 PM
Hi Jason,

My vortex system consists of a mechanical vortex with static K1 and then three more vortex units all connected together all containing K1 and in all around 350lts of K1.

This all works independent of the showers and has the heating on it as well.

Yes my pond turns over around an hour or less which is where i like it to be :)

JAY76
16-01-2013, 11:02 PM
Hi Gazza

Thanks For That Info,it Gives Me Somthing To Work On.

How Many Koi Do You Keep In Your Pond? As Mine Is A Little Over Stock And Not Sure What A Sensible Stocking Level Would Be For Mine,as Looking To Get The Best Out Of Them

Jason

Gazfish
17-01-2013, 05:53 PM
Hi Jason,

What is a sensible stocking level........now thats a good question :)

I personally would not put it down to the size of the pond but to the filtration and the water and maintenance as i have seen many smaller ponds performing very well with some big fish in them.

I like to keep around 12-14 fish in the pond but i have a couple of extra at the moment as i had to close down my growing on tank as it had a leak :eek: so i think i have 15 koi at the moment from around 50cm to 80cm.

JAY76
17-01-2013, 06:28 PM
Hi Gazza
Due You Keep 12-15 Fish Because Thats The Limit To Your Filtration Or Are You Just Adding Fish As You Find The Right Ones If So What Number Would You Stop At.
As I Have 34, My Mate Is Taking 6 In The Spring But I Still Think 28 Is A Bit To Many As 15 Of Them Are Over 65cm And Go Up Over 80cm
I Am Not Going To Show Them Just Enjoy Them.

Sorry One More Question
Some People On Hear Have Said That From August To November Is They Main Growing Months So They Feed Like Mad But What About From March To August 3-4 Feeds A Day? As I Have Allways Feed Three Times A Day And In Summer Up 5-6 Times,not Sure If That Right Or Those Boy Are After Max Growth From There Koi
Thanks Jason

JAY76
20-01-2013, 04:37 PM
Hi Dave

Done Some More Testing Today The Results

Tap Water (after Been In Airated Bucket 24 Hrs)
Ph 8.2 Tds 360 Kh 5 Gh14
Pond Water Three Weeks Ago They Were Ph 7.7 Kh 1 Gh 14 Tds Over 600 But Hanna Needed Calibrated So Duff Reading.

Pond Water Today Is Ph 8 Tds 460 Kh2 Gh14.

I Think My Efforts To Reduce The Tds Has Work But The Ph Has Allso Gone Up And Fish Don't Like That Much At All, So Since Bead And Ozone And No Food My Kh Has Gone Up To 2 On My Nt Labs Test Kit Still Waiting For Other One To Turn Up.

What Are Your Throughts On Ro If I Mixed It From Day One Ie
Tds Of 90-110 Ph 7 Kh1 Gh4 That Way I Could Lower My Tds ,ph,gh But Keep The Kh At Safe Levels I Have Bicarb If Need To Buffer.

My Aim Is To Get The Water Readings To Ph Under 7.5 Tds Under 160 Ish Kh1-2 Gh 4-5.
Not Going To Show Fish Just Try And Get The Best I Can With What I Have.

Thanks Jason

Davej
20-01-2013, 07:17 PM
Hi Dave

Done Some More Testing Today The Results

Tap Water (after Been In Airated Bucket 24 Hrs)
Ph 8.2 Tds 360 Kh 5 Gh14
Pond Water Three Weeks Ago They Were Ph 7.7 Kh 1 Gh 14 Tds Over 600 But Hanna Needed Calibrated So Duff Reading.

Pond Water Today Is Ph 8 Tds 460 Kh2 Gh14.

I Think My Efforts To Reduce The Tds Has Work But The Ph Has Allso Gone Up And Fish Don't Like That Much At All, So Since Bead And Ozone And No Food My Kh Has Gone Up To 2 On My Nt Labs Test Kit Still Waiting For Other One To Turn Up.

What Are Your Throughts On Ro If I Mixed It From Day One Ie
Tds Of 90-110 Ph 7 Kh1 Gh4 That Way I Could Lower My Tds ,ph,gh But Keep The Kh At Safe Levels I Have Bicarb If Need To Buffer.

My Aim Is To Get The Water Readings To Ph Under 7.5 Tds Under 160 Ish Kh1-2 Gh 4-5.
Not Going To Show Fish Just Try And Get The Best I Can With What I Have.

Thanks JasonHi Jason

Well it seems you have turned the corner and the KH in the pond is moving up.

You could mix 50/50 and that will have an impact in getting the GH down in the pond whilst still putting in enough KH to keep things safe.

Alternate is to run in straight RO and then buffer up the KH to maintain at 40ppm, if you go down this route then best to add a tad of bicarb daily rather than a bigger amount every three days to give greater stability.

But the KH kit needs to be your best Pal, with the low KH you have in the pond to start you will need to keep a close eye on things.

I suspect that you may need to get the GH down to 20-40ppm to get stability but time will tell.

Dave

JAY76
20-01-2013, 07:38 PM
Hi Dave
Thanks For You Help ,will Keep A Eye On The Kh Daily And Take Your Advice On The Bicarb,should Have Ro Unit In The Next 10 Days So Will Take It Slowly,the Only Thing On My Side The Fish Are Not Been Feed So Less Load On The Pond ,filters.
Thanks Jason

Ps Keep Up The Good Work Helping Other Koi Keepers It Does Make A Difference Thanks

Gazfish
20-01-2013, 10:11 PM
Hi Jason,

Sorry mate i missed you last question :rolleyes:

I keep around 12+ fish as i i like to see them just going around the pond and the bigger ones glide through the water and i feel for me if i have to many fish in the pond i don't enjoy them as much but thats just me :)

The filtration can cope with anything i through at it as its nice and mature and works a treat and in the summer i feed around a kilo of food a day.

Feeding all depends on what you like or are used to and what the filters can cope with. I start to warm the pond up as the weather starts to warm up in spring time.This goes up as it gets warmer and through the summer and i do feed all the way up to the new year then i cool it down for winter and stop the food till spring again.

JAY76
20-01-2013, 10:32 PM
Hi Gazza

I Only Asked About Food As I Think I Was Under Feeding Last Year Through The Growing Season As I Was No Where Near That Amount Of Food A Day With 34 Koi .
How Do Estimate Food Per Day? I Know It Is Only What The Filter Will Cope With,going To Use A Autofeeder To Keep The Load On Pond The Same Each Day.
I Am Starting To See Why My Koi Have Not Grow That Much If There Not Getting The Food.
My Big Chag Did Allright But He Was Hand Feed And Got More Than Hes Share.

Going To Start Ro Mixing In The Next Three Weeks,some Of You Boys Change 15-20% Water A Day In The Summer Is That Just Ro Water As I See On Kevins Vid You Had A 450 Gallon Ro Unit And 20% Is More Than That Unit Can Produce In A Day?

Sorry More Questions
Jason

MonkeyHarris
21-01-2013, 02:59 PM
Alternate is to run in straight RO and then buffer up the KH to maintain at 40ppm, if you go down this route then best to add a tad of bicarb daily rather than a bigger amount every three days to give greater stability.
Dave

Hi Dave,

I've been following most of this thread with interest and i have a couple of questions for you.

Do you mix tap and RO? I seem to remember you saying you added bicarb. You probably told me when I came round but my head was spinning with all the gadgets. Assuming it is the later what readings do you get for kh from your tap? I expect mine will be similar but you have better equipment for testing than me :D so nice to have a ball park figure.

Davej
21-01-2013, 08:41 PM
Hi Dave,

I've been following most of this thread with interest and i have a couple of questions for you.

Do you mix tap and RO? I seem to remember you saying you added bicarb. You probably told me when I came round but my head was spinning with all the gadgets. Assuming it is the later what readings do you get for kh from your tap? I expect mine will be similar but you have better equipment for testing than me :D so nice to have a ball park figure.

Hi Paul

GH16 KH6 or around that in my supply.

Now the Health warning -What I think works for me is my take, if I cock up then it’s my responsibility and my cost so to anyone “tuning in” message is to do your research and then make your own decisions. Koi are happy at PH 8, start messing with RO and get it wrong and at best they will be unhappy.


To be honest I mix or Bicarb buffer depending on where the water in the pond is in the year so it‘s not totally straightforward.

In the summer its primarily Bicarb mixing. Through the late Autumn with the heavy feed going in there’s a lot more pressure on the TDS and I’m happy to let it rise from start to Season 80-90ppm up to around 120TDS.

As soon at the feed stops then in my set up there’s an absolute minimum KH burn and the TDS starts to fall, if I continued on the summer regime then by the end of the winter I would be easily sub 50 which would leaves me uncomfortable, (don’t ask me why) so I tend to bring it down to around 80 and retain it at that level by mixing.

As I said at the top running these sort of numbers comes with a load of health warnings, if the “system” isn’t suitable then not something to mess with, as if you stuff it up you can catch a cold big time.

Jason

You are catching the ball, getting the best out of the fish depends on a load of things, end of the day sows ear and silk purse overlays this. Unless the fish itself has the attributes to grow, however much you heat, feed and pamper it then it will simply grow to its genetic and individual potential.

Little story - There’s a Pearl Kohaku sitting in my main pond that’s 45cm at Gosai - it’s dwarfed by the Nissai in there. BUT in maybe another 5 years he will maybe get to 60cm and if I can keep him nice a Pearl Kohaku of that size is some fish.

Dave

JAY76
21-01-2013, 08:46 PM
Hi Paul

From What Dave As Said If You Mix 50-50 Ro And Tap Water You Would Be Safe And Not Need Bicarb,if You Went Just Ro You Need To Check Kh Daily And May Be Add Small Amounts Of Bicarb To Buffer The Kh To Stop A Ph Crash.
I Am Going To Mix To Start With To Give Me Confidence With Set Up For 6-8 Weeks May Have To Use Ro Water In The Summer To Keep The Water I Am After Time Will Tell.

I Am Shore Dave Will Explain It Better Than Me Lol

Jason
DAVE ALLREADY HAS LOL

Davej
21-01-2013, 08:53 PM
Hi Paul

From What Dave As Said If You Mix 50-50 Ro And Tap Water You Would Be Safe And Not Need Bicarb,if You Went Just Ro You Need To Check Kh Daily And May Be Add Small Amounts Of Bicarb To Buffer The Kh To Stop A Ph Crash.
I Am Going To Mix To Start With To Give Me Confidence With Set Up For 6-8 Weeks May Have To Use Ro Water In The Summer To Keep The Water I Am After Time Will Tell.

I Am Shore Dave Will Explain It Better Than Me Lol

Jason
DAVE ALLREADY HAS LOL

Hi Jason

Just remember the KH kit needs to be your best friend.

Dave

JAY76
21-01-2013, 09:00 PM
Dave

All I Am After Is Doing The Best With What I Have If Most Of Mine Grow 60ish And Few Do Better Then I Will Be Happy,ihave Two Fish Over 80cm ,hoping For Happy Heathly Fish Thats My Aim.
5 Of My Fish Are Over 12 Years Old So They May Not Grow Any More But I Do 8 Two Year Old That Need That Good Water To Do Well ,
You Never Know I Might Post Up A Few Nice Fish In Years To Come Like Your Two Ladys.
Jason

MonkeyHarris
21-01-2013, 09:31 PM
Thanks chaps. Good advice as always.

I think with my current setup (bead filter) and what sounds like disappointingly low kh in our area, RO is something that might happen one day but not for the time being. Due to my work and family commitments I can't guarantee I'll be able to check the kh as often as is necessary.

If the kh was higher I'd feel more confident. I need to check my source water as well just in case and get readings on the pond throughout the year once the bead has matured a bit to get a better idea of where I am. I've started a trickle feed now of approx 5% a day and will up this as necessary once feeding starts again.

I’m the same as you guys in as much as I’m not interested in showing fish (other than perhaps on the forum). I just don’t want to be thinking if only I’d done that 5 years ago.....

I remember that kohaku Dave. I was quite suprised when you told me it was one of the older ones.

JAY76
24-01-2013, 08:07 PM
Hi Paul

Going To Start Runing Ro In The Next 10 Days Will Let You Know How It Goes And How Much Work It Takes To Keep An Eye On,i Think The First 6-8 Weeks Will Be Fun,i Am The Same As You A Low Kh So Got To Keep An Eye On That But Looking Forward To The Results Of Ro

Jason

MonkeyHarris
24-01-2013, 10:03 PM
Good luck Jason. I look forward to hearing how you get on. This kind of stuff is all part of the fun for me with this hobby. I enjoy it almost as much as watching the mutts :D

JAY76
29-01-2013, 07:46 PM
Hi All

Had A Few Problems With Low Kh As You Might Have Read Early On This Thread After Removing My Bead Filter And Putting A Cb Shower And A Few Small Water Changes My Kh Has Gone From 18ppm To 55ppm In Three Weeks ,so Things Are Looking Good For Ro Next Week If It Turns UP.

Dave J--you Said About Using Bicarb Small Amounts Every Day If Needed,what Sort Of Dose Per 1000 Gallons As Been Told 150 Grams Per 1000 Gallon To Raise Kh? Is That About Right

Jason

Davej
29-01-2013, 09:20 PM
Hi All

Had A Few Problems With Low Kh As You Might Have Read Early On This Thread After Removing My Bead Filter And Putting A Cb Shower And A Few Small Water Changes My Kh Has Gone From 18ppm To 55ppm In Three Weeks ,so Things Are Looking Good For Ro Next Week If It Turns UP.

Dave J--you Said About Using Bicarb Small Amounts Every Day If Needed,what Sort Of Dose Per 1000 Gallons As Been Told 150 Grams Per 1000 Gallon To Raise Kh? Is That About Right

Jason

Jason

Good to see the KH on the rise.

Any addition of bicarb will raise the KH, but when you get the RO up and running what you dont want to do is start adding too much to the KH and consequentially changing the pH rapidly.

Best to see what loss of KH you are getting on a daily basis (which will depend on the amount of RO and the feed etc) and then add a very small amount of Bicarb on a daily basis to top this up.

Dave

JAY76
29-01-2013, 09:26 PM
Dave

Will Keep An Eye On Kh And Go From There

Cheers Jason

koicrazysteve
30-01-2013, 01:34 PM
We have soft water in Swansea,when I first started keeping koi here the ph was always low and I struggled to keep it in the ideal range,I now have shells in my filterbay and hardly ever have to check ph as it is always around 7.5
Even though it is a little down side my koi have made really good growth and colours have kept strong :)
Some people prefer to add powders etc to keep ph stable but I find shells work 24 hours a day and give you piece of mind,I would'nt be without them ;)

Regards
Steve

JAY76
30-01-2013, 04:09 PM
Hi Steve

Thats Lucky You Have Soft Water,my Ph Is 8.0 To 8.2 So A Bit High.when I Use Ro I Will Have To Buffer To Get The Tds And Gh Down All Good Fun.alot People Try To Get There Ph To Low Sevens ,what Your Tape Water Ph?

Jason

Dave Collins
10-02-2013, 11:42 AM
As Davej says you need to calibrate the TDS meter but I also have calibration fluid for the pH meter. This double checks that your KH is in the correct range.

Let us know when you start adding the RO.

JAY76
10-02-2013, 11:53 AM
Hi Dave C

Going To Start Ro This Week But Depens On Weather,going To Recailbrated Both Tds And Ph Meter This Week Before Starting Ro.my Kh Has Been On The Rise Up 65ppm So Not Bad As At Xmas It Was 18ppm This Gives Me A Little Buffer But Have Got 50 Kg Of Bicarb Ready Lol

Will Keep You Posted On The Water As It Changes

Jason

Dave Collins
12-02-2013, 02:36 PM
Hi Jason,

I don't know if you know but RO membranes hate hard water. My tap water has a TDS of 340 with a GH of about 13dH and a KH of 9dH. This means that my RO membranes last between 6 and 8 weeks :mad: When I look at them they are covered in limescale.

I have had to install a water softener to feed the RO unit that increases their life.

This could be something that you will also need.

Dave

JAY76
12-02-2013, 06:01 PM
Hi Dave

Not Heard That One About The Membranes.my Dealer Has Had No Problems Like That And Hies Water Is The Same As Mine But Will Ask The Question Cheers For The Heads Up

Jason

JAY76
03-03-2013, 09:05 PM
hi all

got my ro unit up and running today took most of the day and still messing around with to make sure the auto flush is working and the booster pump timer is working ok,so far its gone ok my tds going into the pond is 4-6 and the waste side is 650 ish going to check all the readings tomorrow morning ,not feeding so hope the kh is going to be ok ,but will be testing every day till i get to grips with it.
getting 1.5 litres a minute of good water with the breaks for the booster pump should get about 400 ish gallons a day,i think i can get more but got to think about the membrains.

cheers jason

JAY76
29-03-2013, 06:22 PM
Hi All

Its Been Four Weeks Now And The Ro Has Been Fairly Easy To Keep An Eye On ,less Work Than I Thought It Would Be ,as For Pond Readings They Are
Tds 100
Ph 7.5-7.7
Gh 75ppm
Kh30-40ppm (adding Bicarb To Maintain This )
The Fish Are Doing Well No Problems With Them,i Have Warmed The Pond Up To 16c Last Week And They Are Going Mad For Food And A Few Skin Problems I Had Are Looking Better
Also My Kh Has Been Good To Me And Only Add A Small Amount Of Bicarb,replacing My Bead For A Shower Will Have Help
Cheers To Davej And Gazfish For Your Help With The Advice On Ro Its Help No End
My Old Readings For The Pond Were
Tds 440
Ph 8.1-8.3
Gh 220ppm
Kh75ppm

Jason