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kie
20-04-2011, 08:09 PM
Hi everyone,

I'm new on here, was just looking for a bit of help really.

I have a fair bit of experience in fish keeping, mainly kept tropicals.
I have build a pond in my nans when I was 15 but it was a simple liner with pump into a box filter style pond, so its a pain to clean, pump needs cleaning every two weeks or so.

so now we (live with parents still) have moved to a house with a garden I am building a new bigger better pond.

I have already had a look through mark's and jeffry's diarys which have been a great help so far.

my plan so far:
concrete pond, 1ft hardcore layer then concrete base with 4" bottom drain in.
dense concrete blocks used to build walls.
then rendered and painted with pond paint, (G4 paint).
walls caped off with coping stones.

the pond will be approx 7,500 L in volume.
the bottom drain will lead into a yamitsu fiberglass 10,000 gravity fed filter, then pumped out the filter with a 6,000 l/h pump through a UV (not sure what size, haven't really looked yet) and returned to the pond via a large water blade if I can find one to take that volume of water, if not ill split it, part into the water blade and part through a 2" return pipe through the wall under the water level (which should improve flow and reduce surface disturbance, still want to see the fish). I might split it anyway.

my questions that I need a little help with are as follows:
1) how thick does the concrete base have to be?

2) I will get the concrete mixed with fibres in but should I use steel mesh aswell ontop of the hardcore layer if I can afford it?

3) what do you all think to using render with pond paint? pros and cons?
(this has been my main concern, making it water tight)

4) if I go ahead with paint, any ideas on if would have to paint the walls then when they are dry paint the base, or would have to try and paint the 3 consecutive layers on the walls while the paint is still wet enough to stick to together, then start painting the base while the walls are still wet?

5) again with the paint, for sealing the return pipe (if i put one in) and the bottom drain I was thinking of rendering up to them and then once i have painted it I would use black aquarium grade silicon and use loads to cover the edges to ensure it is sealed, what do you all think to doing that, is it wise?

6) do you think the water blade would be ok on its own if I can get one to take that amount of water or should I have a mid-water return through the wall aswell? I am guessing it will be the later option as it would improve flow but best askin.

thanks for any response I recieve as it would be a great help.
kieran

terrydog
20-04-2011, 08:22 PM
not sure about the g4 i would glass it over the g4

markf1fan
20-04-2011, 08:29 PM
Hi everyone,

I'm new on here, was just looking for a bit of help really.

I have a fair bit of experience in fish keeping, mainly kept tropicals.
I have build a pond in my nans when I was 15 but it was a simple liner with pump into a box filter style pond, so its a pain to clean, pump needs cleaning every two weeks or so.

so now we (live with parents still) have moved to a house with a garden I am building a new bigger better pond.

I have already had a look through mark's and jeffry's diarys which have been a great help so far.

my plan so far:
concrete pond, 1ft hardcore layer then concrete base with 4" bottom drain in.
dense concrete blocks used to build walls.
then rendered and painted with pond paint, (G4 paint).
walls caped off with coping stones.

the pond will be approx 7,500 L in volume.
the bottom drain will lead into a yamitsu fiberglass 10,000 gravity fed filter, then pumped out the filter with a 6,000 l/h pump through a UV (not sure what size, haven't really looked yet) and returned to the pond via a large water blade if I can find one to take that volume of water, if not ill split it, part into the water blade and part through a 2" return pipe through the wall under the water level (which should improve flow and reduce surface disturbance, still want to see the fish). I might split it anyway.

my questions that I need a little help with are as follows:
1) how thick does the concrete base have to be?

2) I will get the concrete mixed with fibres in but should I use steel mesh aswell ontop of the hardcore layer if I can afford it?

3) what do you all think to using render with pond paint? pros and cons?
(this has been my main concern, making it water tight)

4) if I go ahead with paint, any ideas on if would have to paint the walls then when they are dry paint the base, or would have to try and paint the 3 consecutive layers on the walls while the paint is still wet enough to stick to together, then start painting the base while the walls are still wet?

5) again with the paint, for sealing the return pipe (if i put one in) and the bottom drain I was thinking of rendering up to them and then once i have painted it I would use black aquarium grade silicon and use loads to cover the edges to ensure it is sealed, what do you all think to doing that, is it wise?

6) do you think the water blade would be ok on its own if I can get one to take that amount of water or should I have a mid-water return through the wall aswell? I am guessing it will be the later option as it would improve flow but best askin.

thanks for any response I recieve as it would be a great help.
kieran

hiya and welcome to the forum, here are some answers to your questions.

1 = at least 8" deep
2 = dont need the steel bars, just get a c35 fibre mix
3 = do not use G4 it will start to fall off after such a short time. how about a box welded liner like i did on my pond.
4 = dont Paint at all. G4 is old style now. i dont think many would use this way any more.
5 = once again dont go this way. liner or fibre glass
6 = 100% mid water return because you need to have a flow around the pond for the fish and also the bottom drain.

this is just my opinion on what i would do and have done. maybe others will say things different. mark

kie
20-04-2011, 08:59 PM
thanks for the advice guys, I did get the idea of using paint from an old website so that would make sense as to why all the recent stuff I have found is either liner or fiberglass. Ill look into it more.

cheers again.

markf1fan
20-04-2011, 09:04 PM
thanks for the advice guys, I did get the idea of using paint from an old website so that would make sense as to why all the recent stuff I have found is either liner or fiberglass. Ill look into it more.

cheers again.

G4 was used years ago and i dont think any one would use it now, you can buy another kind of pond paint called koicoat i believe. but this is very expensive to buy and more then buying a box welded liner. also if it was painted your render would have to be 100% perfect with no cracks in it. have a think about a liner or even fibre glass if you can afford it. mark

terrydog
20-04-2011, 09:30 PM
if you go for glass i will tell you how to do it yourself and can tell you how much it costs

kie
20-04-2011, 10:58 PM
cheers for the offer on that terrydog, am gonna go liner, working to a budget so dont think I can stretch to fiberglass aswell.

I think i will go for a box weld, cost more than a usual liner but well worth it.
just got to make sure i know what I am doing when it comes to sealing the bottom drain and return pipe, plenty of silicone I think, and I have been looking at some posts on here and elsewere on the net.

mark, just wondering were did you get yours from?
I am looking to price things up for now, hoping to start doing it all properly when i finish uni later this year, I would love to get in finished this year in time to get my fish in (moving them from current pond into this pond) before the winter prevents me doing that.

I am hoping to try and get the hole dug in the next few weeks though between finishing my last assignments then order the filter ect. so I can piece the bottom drain, pipes and filter together in order to make sure it all lines up properly before concreting the drain in and getting the base put in.
if i manage to get the base in then my dad has offered to start doing the bloack walls of a weekends while I go through my exams. which would be a massive help to getting it done in time.

by the way by saying a c35 fiber mix concrete, what are the fibres? glass, steel or plastic or something else?

cheers
kie

markf1fan
20-04-2011, 11:04 PM
cheers for the offer on that terrydog, am gonna go liner, working to a budget so dont think I can stretch to fiberglass aswell.

I think i will go for a box weld, cost more than a usual liner but well worth it.
just got to make sure i know what I am doing when it comes to sealing the bottom drain and return pipe, plenty of silicone I think, and I have been looking at some posts on here and elsewere on the net.

mark, just wondering were did you get yours from?
I am looking to price things up for now, hoping to start doing it all properly when i finish uni later this year, I would love to get in finished this year in time to get my fish in (moving them from current pond into this pond) before the winter prevents me doing that.

I am hoping to try and get the hole dug in the next few weeks though between finishing my last assignments then order the filter ect. so I can piece the bottom drain, pipes and filter together in order to make sure it all lines up properly before concreting the drain in and getting the base put in.
if i manage to get the base in then my dad has offered to start doing the bloack walls of a weekends while I go through my exams. which would be a massive help to getting it done in time.

by the way by saying a c35 fiber mix concrete, what are the fibres? glass, steel or plastic or something else?

cheers
kie

hi ya
my bottom drain came from avenue fisheries. they cost i think £75-£80 if i remember right. they really are the best bottom drains around i believe.
as for the c35 fiber mix it has glass fiber in which makes the concrete so much more strong.

kie
20-04-2011, 11:25 PM
nice one for that ill check it out, I do like the bowl shape of yours to guide the mess into the pipe, but to be honest I was a little confused by your drain as it has a lid on a hinge, how does that work. all other drains I have seen have a gap for the water to flow through.

I was also thinking what is the hindge made of, does it not effect the water, same as the screws used to attach the liner, dont they rust, or do you just cover them in silicone?

thanks
kie

kie
20-04-2011, 11:30 PM
forgot to ask mark, were did you get your box liner?

cheers
kie

trickydicky
21-04-2011, 12:02 AM
Welcome Kie
Fibre glass will cost roughly £25 m2 and if you have an odd shape will be the better option as for marks hinge on his lid it is stainless steel as are the screws used .
Marks drain seems to be the new way forward in the koi world as they dont have any way of crap sitting dormant which can lead to problems.
If you look closely at the picture of his drain it has 3 wedges built onto the lid that make it stand proud of the base thus allowing crap to be sucked in.
The other type of bottom drains dont have this and have to be pushed frimly onto a spigot that can break causing a major headache,also if for whatever reason you have a blockage of lets say hair algae you will struggle to clear it as yet again you risk damaging that bloody spigot.
Some people have never had a problem with these and wil say go for it but it is upto you as where all different,i myself will be getting the same as marks.

Rick

Big_al
21-04-2011, 09:14 AM
Marks drain seems to be the new way forward in the koi world as they dont have any way of crap sitting dormant which can lead to problems.
If you look closely at the picture of his drain it has 3 wedges built onto the lid that make it stand proud of the base thus allowing crap to be sucked in.
The other type of bottom drains dont have this and have to be pushed frimly onto a spigot that can break causing a major headache,also if for whatever reason you have a blockage of lets say hair algae you will struggle to clear it as yet again you risk damaging that bloody spigot.
Some people have never had a problem with these and wil say go for it but it is upto you as where all different,i myself will be getting the same as marks.

Rick

Apologises Kie for hijacking your thread

Tricky is Marks drain better than a spindrifter bottom drain?



Cheers Al

trickydicky
21-04-2011, 10:29 AM
Hi Al, it depends on the individual mate to be honest as some rate the spindrifter very highly , myself i am wanting the ease of being able to resolve any future problem very quickly hence me opting for the same as mark has.
Lets give a scenario, if the 4 " pipe for instance was to become blocked as they all too easily can do in time with the drain mark has got all you need do is lift the lid and you can use any 4" drain rod to shove down it and unblock however with the other drains this is going to be a very difficult process as the risk of damaging the supporting dome spigot can all too easily break.
I just like to think ahead and be proactive instead of reactive as it works out cheaper in the long run ;) .

kie
21-04-2011, 12:29 PM
that makes perfect sense rick, I myself am trying to plan ahead, I want to make the pond as easy to manage as possible because i live with my parents I intent to move out one day so they need to be able to manage it aswell.

thinking on glassing it may be the way I have to go I am considering one or too shelves aswell, incase I decide to add any plants, also I may have one of the shelves about 1 ft below the surface, might put marginal plants on it but its main purpose is incase any of my 3 cats or any of the local cats fall/jump in, down want them to drown. the shelf would make it possible for them to get back out, and if I use liner then their claws would rip straight through it.

plenty to think about, I have now decided on my final design (except were the shelves go), the water will return to the pond from the UV through a wid water pipe in the wall, so I get the better flow. then I plan on having a floating skimmer, keep next doors blossom pettles out.

I plan on starting to dig the hole tomorrow if I get my uni work finished today, and I will order my filter, drain and pipework over the next week.

as far as I am aware pressure pipe is the best to use isn't it?

kie

markf1fan
21-04-2011, 09:01 PM
my liner came from avenue fisheries. was £330 for a 13x10x4 in size. life time guarantee with it on the joins. the bottom drain came from avenue fisheries aswell and are about £80 if i remeber. they are awesome drains and in my opinion 1000% better then the small crap ones that you can buy.

Big_al
21-04-2011, 09:13 PM
my liner came from avenue fisheries. was £330 for a 13x10x4 in size. life time guarantee with it on the joins. the bottom drain came from avenue fisheries aswell and are about £80 if i remeber. they are awesome drains and in my opinion 1000% better then the small crap ones that you can buy.

Mark, very eloquently put.:D

trickydicky
21-04-2011, 09:18 PM
Mark, very eloquently put.:D

PMSL...Mark i think people are beginning to realise what your like mate :D :D say it as it is :cool:

markf1fan
21-04-2011, 09:22 PM
PMSL...Mark i think people are beginning to realise what your like mate :D :D say it as it is :cool:

mate you know me, i say it as it is and if people dont like it then so be it lol. i can only give my opinion on what i have tryied and tested. i see a 9000 gallon pond at the weekend and guess who built it lol avenue and it had one of the bottom drains on it. its looked awesome lol. ;)

Big_al
21-04-2011, 09:29 PM
mate you know me, i say it as it is and if people dont like it then so be it lol. i can only give my opinion on what i have tryied and tested. i see a 9000 gallon pond at the weekend and guess who built it lol avenue and it had one of the bottom drains on it. its looked awesome lol. ;)

Well you have persuaded me Mark - after all I don't want one of those small crap ones. :)

Seriously though they do look pretty impressive on Avenue Fisheries website and at £80 not a bad price either !

Al,

markf1fan
21-04-2011, 09:35 PM
Well you have persuaded me Mark - after all I don't want one of those small crap ones. :)

Seriously though they do look pretty impressive on Avenue Fisheries website and at £80 not a bad price either !

Al,

where is it you live mate, im coming upto bridlington next month.

trickydicky
21-04-2011, 09:37 PM
bridlington is east yorkshire mark about 70 or so miles from west yorkshire maybe more as west yorkshire is vast

markf1fan
21-04-2011, 09:39 PM
bridlington is east yorkshire mark about 70 or so miles from west yorkshire maybe more as west yorkshire is vast

yes but avenue is over 200 miles lol

Big_al
21-04-2011, 11:18 PM
yes but avenue is over 200 miles lol

Mark, Tricky is right well almost I live just east of Huddersfield and Brid is around 90 miles away. But thank you for the thought. I have to say that this is the most fun and friendly forum I have ever joined and I am a member on quite a few!:D :D

Don't avenue fisheries do mail order - the stagecoach does come up here once a week. ;)

Al,

markf1fan
22-04-2011, 06:44 AM
Mark, Tricky is right well almost I live just east of Huddersfield and Brid is around 90 miles away. But thank you for the thought. I have to say that this is the most fun and friendly forum I have ever joined and I am a member on quite a few!:D :D

Don't avenue fisheries do mail order - the stagecoach does come up here once a week. ;)

Al,

Hiya you would have to ring avenue because i dont know if they do mail order or not.

kie
13-06-2011, 09:09 PM
Hi everyone, I havn't posted for quite a while, been busy with uni (last year exams, all finished now so I can get on with my pond)

quick update:
- the hole is dug, by hand with no skips just trips to the tip, 10' x 9' x 5' deep.
- I have my filter, uv light, pump, skimmer (floating), pipework and drain (from avenue fisheries, they posted it to me)
- I have ordered my hardcore which is arriving tomorrow, I have ordered one tonne which might only give me a few inches depth (most pond builds I have seen with concrete bases didnt have any so I am happy with this)


I do have one question,
once the hardcore is down I will seal all my 4" pipe work and drain together and check it for leaks as best I can so if i have any they can be fixed before being covered in concrete. I will then concrete the drain and pipework in place before ordering the main base.

How long should I wait between laying the drain and pipwork and then laying the base?

thanks in advance for any replies

kie

hardip
14-06-2011, 02:00 PM
Fixing the pipework in place and curing times for both glue and concrete mix to hold the pipework in place is a 24 hour job. Anytime after that, I'd suggest.

kie
14-06-2011, 11:42 PM
thanks hardip.

I got the hardcore in 2day and then my dad had a chat with a neighbour who is a builder, he gave us some advice in regards to building on the ground we live on (no clay), so it looks like i'll be going the whole hog. got to order another 2 tonnes of hardcore tomorrow and rent a propper compacter on monday, wake the hardcore for a few days, maybe all week. hopefully then I can get my drain put together and concreted in.

I am now going to put mesh in the concrete base aswell (i wasnt planning too) but better safe than sorry.

my question now is what gauge mesh do I need, 6mm, 8mm or 10mm?

I am trying to keep the cost down as much as possible so if 6mm will do it then great but if I need thicker then so be it.

thanks
kieran

hardip
15-06-2011, 12:39 PM
6 or 8, I'd hazard a guess. Are you sure you will need one with a sufficiently compacted sub base, and a C35 w/fibre mix?

What size concrete base were you looking at (depth)?

kie
15-06-2011, 01:27 PM
I am looking at a 8 inch depth base

I wasnt going to put the mesh in but due to how bad the ground is I would be better to be safe and put some in just as reasurance.

I live on an old glass dumping ground so the ground has no clay, it does have pockets of soft stuff. all the houses are build on concrete rafts.

we had an extension built wen we moved into this house and due to the ground conditions it resulted in having 20 tone of hardcore, loads of steel mesh and concrete about 2 ft thick as a foundation, for a single story extension.

so better safe than sorry.