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  1. #161
    Read Manke’s article mate. Anoxic is a different kettle of fish to a planted basket. They work in complexly different ways.
    It’s all there in reasonably easy to understand language, I sort of understand most of it but struggled with the actual chemistry so had to get the Mrs to explain it to me
    Yes, it’s difficult to get your head around and it’s not a conventional method of filtration however, I doubt if you’ll find anyone who’s using it to say too many negative things, if any.
    Ok, it’s not as simple as chucking a load of K1 in a chamber bit it’s not too tricky to implement if you have the space.
    My reasons for changing my mind over K1 were twofold. Firstly, I’ve been intrigued since I started thinking about a new pond (quite some time ago!!) and secondly there’s the potential energy and water savings to be considered.
    No air pump running 24/7/365 plus the possibly (not guaranteed) of less water wasted.
    It’s also not a mega expensive solution to implement although it does take a bit of effort to make up the baskets.
    Anyway, I’m committed to it now and no turning back.


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  3. #162
    Senior Member Rank = Jussai Alburglar's Avatar
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    I have read some. The point I am making is that anaerobes are able to carry out anaerobic respiration (or fermentation) under anoxic conditions.
    Most ground water is anoxic, so is it not fair to say that both are present in the centre of a potted plant pot, whether there is a plant in there or not, so is it really necessary to use cat litter etc? Why is everyone so sure that the anoxic conditions aren't present in what is effectively the same environment as ground water?

    ... So to clarify. .. From my, fishtank days, as I understood it (i am no expert) It only takes a couple of centimetres of any substrate sand or pea gravel or soil before the environment becomes anoxic. Has that rule of thumb been proven otherwise?

    ... Thinking about it, the only reason that "rule of thumb" existed was to avoid putting too much substrate in. So you could avoid an 'eggy' smell from the anoxic layer as hydrogen sulfide gas was produced there. Something which I have definitely witnessed in tanks with too much peagravel substrate (only 6 inchs would do it).
    Last edited by Alburglar; 22-07-2019 at 11:46 PM.

  4. #163
    Senior Member Rank = Jussai Alburglar's Avatar
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    I googled it and found my memory seems to serve me correctly. https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...43135485901460
    Hydrogen sulfide present in the top 4cm of substrate in two lakes studied. Indicating that it really isn't that hard to achieve an anoxic condition. Just fill the baskets with any common substrate. - surely?
    Or am I missing something?

  5. #164
    Senior Member Rank = Jussai Alburglar's Avatar
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    Anyone know of a cheap dissolved oxygen meter? I could just stick the probe in the centre of my plant pots and put the theory to test then.

  6. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Alburglar View Post
    I have read some. The point I am making is that anaerobes are able to carry out anaerobic respiration (or fermentation) under anoxic conditions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alburglar View Post
    Most ground water is anoxic, so is it not fair to say that both are present in the centre of a potted plant pot, whether there is a plant in there or not, so is it really necessary to use cat litter etc? Why is everyone so sure that the anoxic conditions aren't present in what is effectively the same environment as ground water?
    ... So to clarify. .. From my, fishtank days, as I understood it (i am no expert) It only takes a couple of centimetres of any substrate sand or pea gravel or soil before the environment becomes anoxic. Has that rule of thumb been proven otherwise?
    ... Thinking about it, the only reason that "rule of thumb" existed was to avoid putting too much substrate in. So you could avoid an 'eggy' smell from the anoxic layer as hydrogen sulfide gas was produced there. Something which I have definitely witnessed in tanks with too much peagravel substrate (only 6 inchs would do it).
    Quote Originally Posted by Alburglar View Post
    I googled it and found my memory seems to serve me correctly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alburglar View Post
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...43135485901460
    Hydrogen sulfide present in the top 4cm of substrate in two lakes studied. Indicating that it really isn't that hard to achieve an anoxic condition. Just fill the baskets with any common substrate. - surely?
    Or am I missing something?
    Quote Originally Posted by Alburglar View Post
    Anyone know of a cheap dissolved oxygen meter? I could just stick the probe in the centre of my plant pots and put the theory to test then.
    I try never to become argumentative with people who have different ideas or opinions but I have to say that you are comparing rotting silt or plants in aquatic soil with a system you have no experience with.

    Both I and BCC have advised you that your comments show that you don't understand even the basics of anoxic filtration and that you should read my article. In reply you said "I've read some". Then you continued to show that you don't understand the difference between rotting organic matter in silt where there is no oxygen and where hydrogen sulphide is the result and the clean, anaerobic conditions in the baskets where bug metabolism pegs the dissolved oxygen at between 1.5 mg/L and 2 mg/L. It is to ensure this happens that the system uses clay in the form of cat litter rather than aquatic soil or pea gravel.

    Kevin Novak is a Limnologist who has great knowledge on bacterial metabolism. He spent years perfecting the system and feedback shows that it's being used throughout the World with great success.

    My own part in promoting anoxic was to first obtain Kevin's book (in 2010) and spend literally three months reading it to get to grips with the complexities of the chemistry and biochemistry that goes on inside a basket. I asked Kevin lots of questions and followed his input on two koi forums where he answered a great many questions from potential users, sometimes going into great detail if necessary.

    After that, I built a test anoxic system in a disused vegetable filter where I tested the system to death for months to verify what he said. That obviously included measuring the oxygen gradient and the ammonia and nitrate gradients throughout the volumes of various baskets under different conditions and with different types of media.

    I concur with everything Kevin said about the system.

    This is where I'm struggling not to cause offence but your comments seem to be based on reading some of my article and a theory that simply putting plants in baskets of aquatic soil will also produce anoxic conditions.

    Let us not argue about this. Those forums have now ceased but Kevin has captured the most informative posts and put them on his blog along with the feedback from users and there is a link where his book may be downloaded FOC. I invite you to read Kevin's blog and download his book on the subject. On the blog, there is a huge amount of deep information about many subjects including anoxic filtration for ponds and aquaria. Start with his "popular posts" (listed on the right hand side of the page) from 2013 and work your way forward.

    Then you'll understand the difference between rotting silt where organic matter is decomposed into hydrogen sulphide by obligate anaerobes and the inside of a properly made anoxic basket where ammonia molecules are drawn into the basket by electrostatic charges and presented to facultative anaerobes whose respiration mode converts that into nitrogen gas (strictly dinitrogen N2) which aeration causes to bubble away to atmosphere in the same way as excess dissolved carbon dioxide is "gassed off"

    https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/anoxic-filtration-system/id604698627?mt=11

    http://anoxicfiltrationsystem.blogspot.co.uk/



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  8. #166
    I got halfway through writing this before I left for work this morning....

    I’ve no idea, I’m not a scientist, but the sulphuric eggy stink isn’t something you want to be smelling so maybe it’s a different type of “anoxic” condition?
    From my limited understanding and reading (probably the same articles and forum fights since about 2010) I’m not expecting any nasty smells lol.
    They generally occur (in fish tank substrates in my experience) where rotting food etc hasn’t been cleaned from the tank floor which isn’t the same condition that a biocenocis basket works under.

    How about we compare results?
    I’ll happily give my system a go for a couple of years and see what happens, I’ve got nothing to lose by giving it a go as I’m starting from scratch.
    Worst case scenario for me is I revert back to a conventional moving bed.

    Ultimately, there’s a number of ways to skin a cat. There’s no right or wrong way to filter a pond, just the one that suits the individual and their pocket.
    They all work to a degree.



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  10. #167
    Senior Member Rank = Jussai Alburglar's Avatar
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    I'm not here to troll anyone. The purpose of the forum Is to ask questions. The reason I suggested there may be anoxic conditions in the substrate is because I have read contradictory things to what was being summarised here. Like below:

    So to ask the same question a little more eloquently: If I borrow a tester a test my dissolved oxygen in the centre of my plant pots, and see results less 0.5 milligram per litre. Is that indicative of anoxic conditons or not? Because the other water surveys and geographical stuff that I HAVE read suggest that it does.
    I am a total novice to this, but that does seem to be simple and sensible question.

  11. #168
    Irrespective of whether there are “anoxic” conditions or not, the bottom line of your image tells you all you need to know I think.
    Loads of nasty gasses being released and nasty stuff being generated.
    The whole point of the baskets is to turn the ammonia into nitrite/nitrate via a chemical reaction that occurs between the molecules of all the relevant parts of the basket, that’s why it works.
    A bog standard planted basket doesn’t work in the same way as it doesn’t have the correct elements to perform the conversion of the ammonia.
    I think that’s right. That’s my in understanding anyway in layman’s terms.
    The term “anoxic” is probably misleading maybe?
    Like I said, why don’t you try you’re theory? Until you do, it’s just supposition and guesswork. Kevin Novak and Syd have done the research on their system and have the science to back things up, if you think it’s all gobbledygook (many do) then off you go and prove otherwise
    Nobody is accusing you of trolling fella, this conversation is just extremely similar to many others that have occurred on other forums over the years. In fact, what you’ve written could have been cut and pasted from at least two Anoxic filtration - miracle or myth?Anoxic filtration - miracle or myth?


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  13. #169
    I agree.


    There is often confusion about the difference between anaerobic and anoxic and your diagram shows a mistaken interpretation.

    The scientific definition can be summed up as saying that, in an anaerobic environment there is no molecular oxygen or oxidised nitrogen species (e.g. no nitrite NO2 or nitrate NO3) to act as the terminal electron acceptor during respiration. In an anoxic environment there is, again, no molecular oxygen but nitrate is present which bacteria can use as the final the electron acceptor during respiration.

    So, what on Earth does that mean!

    As simply as I can describe it, respiration is all about a biochemical process where energy can be produced by dumping spare electrons onto something that will accept them. Oxygen is the easiest to dump electrons on so organisms prefer to use it when it’s available and we call that aerobic respiration.

    Nitrogen cycle bugs (nitrosomonas and nitrobacter) and humans use aerobic respiration. Humans soon die if oxygen is absent. Nitrogen cycle bugs can survive without oxygen for a while (about 15 to 30 days) but eventually die if it is permanently absent.

    Facultative anaerobic bugs are cleverer than we are. Where oxygen is present, they will use it because it is easy. Where there isn’t any oxygen but there is nitrite or nitrate present, they can switch to anaerobic respiration (aka fermentative respiration) and create energy by using nitrate instead.

    Obligate anaerobes use other terminal electron acceptors such as compounds containing sulphur. Hydrogen sulphide is their waste product and is what causes the eggy smell when organic silt is stirred up or when baskets containing aquatic soil or gravel are broken open. Hydrogen sulphide isn’t welcome in a pond because it’s ten times more toxic to fish than chlorine/chloramine.

    Hydrogen sulphide reacts with trace levels of iron in a pond to produce iron sulphide which causes a blackening of the places where it’s being produced. The surfaces underneath baskets of plants in soil is often black and the gravel in plants that have been growing in gravel is usually blackened. Both of these are indications that the baskets have an anaerobic zone where obligate bugs have been making hydrogen sulphide because there is no oxygen or nitrate. Anyone who wants to see if that’s true only needs to move a basket and look at the surface underneath or break open a basket containing gravel to see if is blackened (hydrogen sulphide also blackens soil but soil is dark anyway so it isn’t easy to spot).

    So, that’s a description of how bugs respire under different conditions but what about the diagram you posted?

    Using the correct scientific definition of anoxic and anaerobic environments, I would reverse the labels “anaerobic” and “anoxic” but leave the various processes unchanged. Whether you do that, or accept the labels as written, it clearly shows that ammonia cannot penetrate into either region. It is converted to nitrate in the aerobic zone. In an anoxic basket, little nitrate is produced because most of the ammonia is drawn by electrostatic attraction into the anoxic zone as shown in the diagram that I drew to explain how these baskets work. This ammonia is directly metabolised by facultative bugs and converted to nitrogen gas which bubbles out of the basket and is gassed off by normal aeration.

    The diagram also shows that in the deeper zone (whatever you call it) there is no oxygen and no nitrate so, as described above, only obligate anaerobic bugs can live there and their respiration mode produces hydrogen sulphide.

    Yes, if you measure the dissolved oxygen levels in a plant basket, you will find decreasing levels as you go deeper but that will tell you nothing about what processes are going on. The smell of the contents of a basket will tell you far more. Those who have fed back to Kevin or I that they have broken open a basket to remake it after several years of use report that it still smells fresh.


    For clarity, zones A and B have not been drawn to scale. In practice these two zones are only a few millimetres thick before nearly all the oxygen has been exhausted.

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  15. #170
    Senior Member Rank = Jussai Alburglar's Avatar
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    Thanks. So the some of the other stuff I was reading was guff and this more appropriate to the basic plant pot scenario:

  16. #171
    Yes mate, two completely different systems.



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  18. #172
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Kyusai Pomster's Avatar
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    Not to read a newspaper makes you uninformed. But to read a newspaper makes you misinformed

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  20. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Alburglar View Post
    Thanks. So the some of the other stuff I was reading was guff and this more appropriate to the basic plant pot scenario:
    Yes, it's an entirely different process to an anoxic basket. In the basket, ammonia is drawn in by electrostatic action and converted to nitrogen gas. So the reaction to remove ammonia is quick and efficient.

    In this diagram, as with the earlier diagram, ammonia only diffuses into the substrate which, not only, is a very much slower process but all the ammonia is initially converted to nitrate. There are multiple reactions going on and some of them convert organic matter into the toxic compounds hydrogen sulphide and methane. The decaying organic matter will also create a perfect breeding ground for heterotrophic bacteria (nasty ones) and multicellular parasites such as trichodina.

    I could go on but the simplest way to sum this up is to say that, if this was an effective way to filter out ammonia, then koi keepers have been wasting money buying expensive filter systems and paying for the electricity to run them.

    We should put all our filter systems and pumps on eBay and just allow the bottoms of our ponds to become dirty and accumulate a thick layer of rotting organic matter which would do the job just as well. The money we will then save on electricity bills can be used to pay for the medications to treat outbreaks of parasites and bacterial diseases.

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  22. #174
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Kyusai Pomster's Avatar
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    If the main ingredient in Laterite is iron oxide, is it possible just to put iron oxide powder in the cat litter?

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/500g-Oxide-.../dp/B00BEU3RVE


    Just a thought, mix with water to form a paste, then bake it?
    Not to read a newspaper makes you uninformed. But to read a newspaper makes you misinformed

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  24. #175
    I wouldn't advise that for two reasons. Laterite and the recommended substitutes contain a range of nutrients and trace minerals that help promote bacterial activity. Also, although koi need trace levels of iron in their diet to help make haemoglobin and enzymes etc., they can suffer gut disorders if the level is too great. The trace levels of iron in laterite are too low to cause this but, if iron was added into the basket, there is the risk of adding too much which would then leach out into the water.

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  26. #176
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Kyusai Pomster's Avatar
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    Thanks for the prompt reply Syd, thought it was a no go but you have to ask

    Baskets have been purchased if nowt else
    Not to read a newspaper makes you uninformed. But to read a newspaper makes you misinformed

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  28. #177
    Also, would your Mrs put up with you cooking 100kg of cat litter in the oven?

    Anoxic filtration - miracle or myth?Anoxic filtration - miracle or myth?


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  30. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigcarpchaser View Post
    Also, would your Mrs put up with you cooking 100kg of cat litter in the oven?

    Anoxic filtration - miracle or myth?Anoxic filtration - miracle or myth?


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    Haha brill

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  31. #179
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    Iron oxide would go in oven .. have one in my workshop

    Does'nt matter though, Manky said no, no, no!

    Just an idea!
    Not to read a newspaper makes you uninformed. But to read a newspaper makes you misinformed

 

 
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