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  1. #121
    Sorry if that confused you. The process is very complicated which is why nitrate as a nutrient is commonly misunderstood. I tried to simplify it as much as possible but, if that didn't click if, then think of it this way:

    Nitrate will encourage algae growth but zero nitrate doesn't mean zero algae. Algae (in common with other plants) need nitrogen and they actually prefer ammonia as a nutrient because they can derive the nitrogen they need directly from it.

    They can also get nitrogen from nitrate but they first have to convert it to ammonia before they can get the nitrogen from it.

    So, even if you could get rid of all the nitrate, as long as you have fish in the pond, you will have some ammonia which is algae's favourite "food".

    Easy peasy???

    PS you can cure insomnia on the link below.

    PPS Figure 1 explains how plants have to convert nitrate into ammonia before they can use it.

    http://arquivo.ufv.br/dbv/pgfvg/BVE6...itatestitt.pdf

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  3. #122
    Senior Member Rank = Nanasai Handy Kenny's Avatar
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    I have got a 2000 litre sump with anoxic baskets, I have had it since day 1 on my 18 month old pond and have got to say I am a fan. I read all of Manky's stuff when I got started (thanks Manky). I also have anoxic baskets with plants in the pond itself (my wife wanted flowers and they do look quite good!) to deal with stuff directly at source in the pond. All in all about 20x12" anoxic baskets and I could add a lot more if required. My water parameters have always been good except for the pH which I think is down to the plants. My previous filter was a DIY blue barrel job with a sieve which was OK but now I have an RDF from which the results (water clarity) have astonished me so my subjective response to anyone is to get an RDF (to remove the big stuff like leaves, leftover food etc.) and then anoxic filtration. I run my system as gravity out of the pond all the way through the RDF and into the sump from where it is pumped back to the pond. A bit fiddly to get the flows right but worth it in the end since I only need one pump. Other things happen in the sump as well - water top up, water overflow, gas immersion heating etc and everything is hidden away.

    Oh and I still get algae!

    Kenny

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  5. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Manky Sanke View Post
    Sorry if that confused you. The process is very complicated which is why nitrate as a nutrient is commonly misunderstood. I tried to simplify it as much as possible but, if that didn't click if, then think of it this way:

    Nitrate will encourage algae growth but zero nitrate doesn't mean zero algae. Algae (in common with other plants) need nitrogen and they actually prefer ammonia as a nutrient because they can derive the nitrogen they need directly from it.

    They can also get nitrogen from nitrate but they first have to convert it to ammonia before they can get the nitrogen from it.

    So, even if you could get rid of all the nitrate, as long as you have fish in the pond, you will have some ammonia which is algae's favourite "food".

    Easy peasy???

    PS you can cure insomnia on the link below.

    PPS Figure 1 explains how plants have to convert nitrate into ammonia before they can use it.

    http://arquivo.ufv.br/dbv/pgfvg/BVE6...itatestitt.pdf
    Well a bit clearer to understand manky thank you, I am awaiting a sleeve in order to connect the 2nd pump up which will then pass through the UV onto the fall, both pumps running at 60% should move the total water through anoxic ponds about once every hour and half maybe see some changes over next few weeks il post some pics of finished puddle that's taken 5months to get this far and it's still WIP but appreciate your advice and comments thanks very much


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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  7. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Handy Kenny View Post
    I have got a 2000 litre sump with anoxic baskets, I have had it since day 1 on my 18 month old pond and have got to say I am a fan. I read all of Manky's stuff when I got started (thanks Manky). I also have anoxic baskets with plants in the pond itself (my wife wanted flowers and they do look quite good!) to deal with stuff directly at source in the pond. All in all about 20x12" anoxic baskets and I could add a lot more if required. My water parameters have always been good except for the pH which I think is down to the plants. My previous filter was a DIY blue barrel job with a sieve which was OK but now I have an RDF from which the results (water clarity) have astonished me so my subjective response to anyone is to get an RDF (to remove the big stuff like leaves, leftover food etc.) and then anoxic filtration. I run my system as gravity out of the pond all the way through the RDF and into the sump from where it is pumped back to the pond. A bit fiddly to get the flows right but worth it in the end since I only need one pump. Other things happen in the sump as well - water top up, water overflow, gas immersion heating etc and everything is hidden away.

    Oh and I still get algae!

    Kenny
    Thanks for that Kenny,

    Kevin Novak and I share the feedback we get from his system and I can say that everyone who has followed his original US design (or any of the modifications I made to make it suitable for us stroppy Brits who are obsessed with gravity filters and ponds that aren't completely in-ground) has reported good results. The only reported failures are from those who have tried a few baskets, usually in competition with a highly active nitrate producing conventional filtration system, and then not seen a miracle of nitrate reduction.



    Quote Originally Posted by richard17 View Post
    Well a bit clearer to understand manky thank you, I am awaiting a sleeve in order to connect the 2nd pump up which will then pass through the UV onto the fall, both pumps running at 60% should move the total water through anoxic ponds about once every hour and half maybe see some changes over next few weeks il post some pics of finished puddle that's taken 5months to get this far and it's still WIP but appreciate your advice and comments thanks very much

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Glad to help.

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  9. #125
    I have to say after building mine several years ago i have nothing but praise for the concept i had help from Manky and Kevin and although running a bead along side my water parameters are spot on even feeding heavy. I understand it's not for everyone but it works for me and am more than happy with my results.
    P.S Manky say hi to Kevin
    Brian

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  11. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Handy Kenny View Post
    I have got a 2000 litre sump with anoxic baskets, I have had it since day 1 on my 18 month old pond and have got to say I am a fan. I read all of Manky's stuff when I got started (thanks Manky). I also have anoxic baskets with plants in the pond itself (my wife wanted flowers and they do look quite good!) to deal with stuff directly at source in the pond. All in all about 20x12" anoxic baskets and I could add a lot more if required. My water parameters have always been good except for the pH which I think is down to the plants. My previous filter was a DIY blue barrel job with a sieve which was OK but now I have an RDF from which the results (water clarity) have astonished me so my subjective response to anyone is to get an RDF (to remove the big stuff like leaves, leftover food etc.) and then anoxic filtration. I run my system as gravity out of the pond all the way through the RDF and into the sump from where it is pumped back to the pond. A bit fiddly to get the flows right but worth it in the end since I only need one pump. Other things happen in the sump as well - water top up, water overflow, gas immersion heating etc and everything is hidden away.

    Oh and I still get algae!

    Kenny
    Thank you guys for reactivating this very interesting thread - debate on anoxic filtration - which inspired me - together with great insights into AF published by Syd aka Manky Sanke - so here goes my experience after 7 months of running my unplanted anoxic filter - details on it you may find here

    https://www.koiforum.uk/pond-constru...-outdoors.html

    My findings:
    1. As stated by Manky in his articles it takes considerable time to get established - so be patient.
    2. As I did not want to throw away my original Nexus 220 - I guess also for having back in my head the '' What IF it would not work as expected in my setup'' reason, I run it in a bit contradicting setup as Manky pointed out several times correctly - so after AEM Easy Drum mechanical filter and split flow between AF and Nexus, while AF removes the amonia all together from the estimated 12.000L/h flow through it (2hrs turn around of my pond), Nexus is perfect nitrate factory - and nitrifies the amonia efficiently from the estimated 6.000L/h flow through it - so I do get nitrate readings oscillating between 10 and 25 mg/L - measured by Oase Quick stick 6 in 1 test - yes Manky - I know - should know better than this - but hey it is our hobby - not science lab - so while using this orientation only test sticks I still have measurable - albeit low nitrates level in my pond thanks to Nexus - during all the tests nitrites were always zero. I was adding only Soda Bicarbonate when my KH reading went down to 3 dG - with pH being between 7 a 7.2 - as I use rain water for RDF cleaning.
    3. For whole 7 months - until last weekend - I have not performed ANY water changes or trickle in - as I use rain water for RDF flushing (this tops off the pond) - so the above nitrate levels show no nitrate buid up over 7 months of normal feeding regime with quite heavily stocked pond - so I guss it is fair to conclude, that in my particular setup the RDF pre-filter - removing all the mock / debries / detritus prior reaching biofilters - in my pumped setup - with 2/3 of biofiltration done by AF it works really well.
    4. I might have not the most typical koi pond setup - as after converting original swimming pool into natural swimming pond and than by adding adequate filtration and koi I ended up with my currrent setup koi pond - I have a lot of aquatic plants in the 6 cub.m shallow zone around the former in the ground swimming pool base (18 cub.m) - see the photo from roof top terrase:

    20170725 ML pond.jpg.jpg

    I was curioous to see how koi and firmly established aquatic plants culture will live together - in fact it works perfectly - in my particular setup really greatly - koi have access to normal wild life zone they can dwell in for any treats - and like to do it often w/o any damages to water lillies or any other plants growing vigorously there - but the water parameters are spot on within the recoommended values which I attribute to the combination of excellent mechanical filtration done by RDF, followed by AF and Nexus - while plants in the pond grow really nicely thus aiding the biofiltration as well - being planted only in sand and gravel - no baskets used - in fact after adding the AF I found out the plants - while not planted in my AF, are benefiiting from it - as JBL Aquabase I used in my biocenosis baskets seems to be releasing trace elements / mineerals into the pond water flowing via the AF - benefiting plants growth in the main pond as well - subjectively noticeably stronger than prior the unpplanted AF was added.
    5. Yes Kenny - I have also algae in my pond - the normal growth on the pond walls I see our koi to feast on now and than - but this Spring I got more string algae than any earlier - it has neven been any big issue in my setup - but this spring - after starting the unplanted AF, I noticed a paradox - stronger string algae growth - which I attribute to the JBL Aquabase fertilizing initially the pond water - until the bicennosis baskets got good growth of benefiiciiary bacteria thus kicking the AF into proper operation - this period took about 2 months - since than no string algae growth anymore.
    6. Subjectively the water seems really clear and better than earlier - and - w/o water changes - no build up of DOC - no foam / long lasting bubbles forming over the airstones aerating my pond - fish eating really vigorously and growing nicelly - all seem very happy. Last weekend I have started programmed trickle water change - again using rain water - with about 10% weekly change - as despite heating the pond to maintain 19 degrees there till end of October to keep koi immune system working full speed as long as possible - the plant growth - which aids my filtration - is slowing down - and I want to prepare as healthy water ahead of aproaching winter as possible.
    7. Based on great advice from Manky I am now building two trickle towers (1 m tall and 30cm diameter) feeding from Nexus - not that I would need to worry about nitrate levels in my pond, but I guess I like to do things by my own hands now and than (unless it is my wife who comes up to me with her priority list resulting in initial reluctance on my side - might be similar for many of us) - so will see what will happen next year.

    Long story short - in my setup the AF really works nicely - for above mentioned reasons I do not run it as the sole filtration but run 2/3 of my RDF water flow over it and rest via Neus - using it's Eazy as nice polisher capturing any fines remaining after RDF - and my water parameters - tested with the sticks (zero nitrites and 10 - 25mg/L nitrates) - seem to be spot on - and my fish seem to be very happy.

    I am not suggesting at all that my setup is perfect - not at all - I ended up where I am due to sequence of events starting with converting in the ground swimming pool into natural swimming pond and with kids growing up I was able to finalize the conversion into koi pond with my atypical setup as described above - where it all seems working together nicely in providing very good living conditions for our koi.

    Good luck with your ponds - and please keep sharing your own findiings / experiences - it is most helpfull!

    Milaz
    Last edited by milaz; 14-10-2017 at 09:35 AM. Reason: Hope the picture is now added properly

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  13. #127
    Senior Member Rank = Nanasai Handy Kenny's Avatar
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    Milaz,
    Thanks for that. We don't very often get a full run down of peoples "systems" but this was fairly comprehensive and a good guide. Like you (and probably every one else out there) I am where I am with my filter through historical attemps to create a good cheap filter which basically never met my expectations. Then again I never thought that I would spend around £1000 on a Drum Filter (previous available drums were around £2500 so that was definitely out for me) but that is how the hobby gets hold of you, especially if you see it as a technical challenge.

    For anyone starting from scratch a good cheap drum (AEM Easydrum £1000) followed by a DIY Anoxic filter (which can be in its own container AKA Milaz's AF) is as good a start as any. Part of my AF is my pond planting and since I have designed an organically shaped pond with planting areas this was easy for me. People with rectangular boxes as ponds would have a little more difficulty here unless a planting shelf is built in. I also use a bit of Sera Siporax housed in a container (wee blue barrel) which also holds my pump and submersible heater so all of the water going back to the pond goes through that.

    Kenny

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  15. #128
    Interesting reading on the set ups, I've had my AF running for around 6weeks now, the water originally clear then pea soup but looks to be have a brown tint now rather than green? I'm not sure how I'm going to get the water clear so at least I can see the koi , it's a bit disappointing at the moment but il continue to be patient and let Mother Nature do its best? I'm considering adding around 4litres of hydrogen peroxide at 3% mix as looking at readings this kills off algae almost immediately but not sure if it would have any bearing on the AF set up? The puddle is around 7000gallons I'm running two 30000lph pumps at about half speed fed from two four inch bottom drains, so water change is approx once every two hours if my calcs are right? Hopefully il be able to start seeing some koi soon other than at feed time ?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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  17. #129
    In my case it took over 2 months until AF kicked in and I was able to notice the improvement. Manky is suggesting fastest possible flow via AF just not to disturb the cat litter in the baskets - so maybe you may increase your pump flow. I have seen the paradox - initial stronger growth of string algae - as I had my UV-C running - most probably effect of the fertilizer inside biocenosis baskets released initially into the pond water - single cell algaes cleaned out by UV-C so string algae took temporary control in your case it might be the opposite - single cell algae outcompeeting string ones thus resulting in pea sup.

    In my setup combination of UV-C and RDF kept the water crystal clear all the time.

    Brown - tea like - tint in your water may suggest tannins released by organic material decomposition - in my case I get a lot of pine needles from my neighbour's garden blown over to my pond - sometimes too many for skimmer to handle it - regular bottom cleanout with Oxy-P in Spring and Fall takes care of it - if still you may want to get rid of it in the water as well, protein skimmer and / or ozone oxidation helps to reduce it - be extra careful with the ozone - never ever inject it directly to your pond - use outside reactor and measure the redox potential of your water (so called ORP) - Manky Sanke has written excellent articles on this subject - read it here:

    Food for thought 3

    Ozone is used for disinfection with side effect of removal of tannins from drinking water for example in Scandinavia - where they use treated surface water naturally discoloured by tannins. Nice article about this is here:

    https://www.hydrogroup.no/fileadmin/...nicipality.pdf

    If you may want to read more scientofic stuff on ozone I found this article quite interesting reading in pdf which cane dpwnloaded for free reading:

    http://www.o3international.com/about...king_water.pdf

    Another way how to reduce water discoloration is actually interesting side benefit of treating your pond with Potassium permanganate as it oxidizes most if not all DOC in your water - tannins are part of the DOC load.

    Hope this helps you.

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  19. #130

    Anoxic filtration - miracle or myth?

    The puddle is no longer showing brown in hindsight may have been algae dying ? The pond is slowly becoming clearer and it's easy to see baskets now in their ponds, water test reveals ammonia of 0!! Ph is a bit high but some white vinegar should adjust this? I actually think this is going in the right direction, and not a man made filter in sight! , will keep up posted Anoxic filtration - miracle or myth?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Last edited by richard17; 24-10-2017 at 07:20 AM.

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  21. #131
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Nisai ash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by richard17 View Post
    The puddle is no longer showing brown in hindsight may have been algae dying ? The pond is slowly becoming clearer and it's easy to see baskets now in there ponds, water test reveals ammonia of 0!! Ph is a bit high but some white vinegar should adjust this? I actually think this is going in the right direction, and not a man made filter in sight! , will keep up posted Anoxic filtration - miracle or myth?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    That’s great. May I ask what you are using to measure your ammonia levels?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Profi-Drum, Nexus 220, 45 basket anoxic filter
    Ultra Sieve III, Ozone generator.


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  23. #132
    Hello I'm using a test kit to check ammonia levels etc,, my puddle of 7000 gallons is now very clear water, the bottom being easy visible at 4' and if I turn off air supply's can see the bottom clearly at 6' I can not believe how clear the water is now without a filter in sight,, will post updates as they materialise


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  25. #133
    Gin clear water with ammonia at zero for me anoxic is the way to go thank you to manke Sanke for all advice


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  27. #134
    Hi all,

    Can i asked those who have the Anoxic filter how are things going and are they still happy with the results?

  28. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pom Down Under View Post
    Can i asked those who have the Anoxic filter how are things going and are they still happy with the results?
    Been running my 12500 litre pond new-build anoxic since the summer of 2014. Pumped into drum then around 50 baskets to mid-water returns.
    Gave up testing water as it never changes from perfect. No water changes except for manually draining level back down after heavy rain.
    I don't have any premium grade fish (Most expensive 2 koi cost £80 each everything else either came with the house 15 years ago or cost £30 each so no genetic monsters), pond isn't heated and I only clean out anoxic chambers at the end of the season as this time of year they're full of tadpoles from frogs and toads and insect life is starting to come to appear (more food for fish).
    Syd did a water test/analysis at one of the koi shows last year for which I was extremely grateful as if gave respected and undeniable proof of how effective anoxic is especially given my absence of water changes and no trickle in-out when all the nay-sayers were telling me there was no way my water would be good enough.
    To the Koi purist I do everything wrong, my pond should be a toxic mess and my fish should all be riddled with parasites but when the waters always spot on, with plenty of air and the superior filtration of drum into anoxic the fish can handle the occasional parasite without a problem (over-crowding would perhaps bring it's own risk of infestations but I only have around 15 fish)
    Only thing I add is an early dose of cloverleaf blanket answer and last year I started adding clay now and again.
    I'd never use any other form of filtration as drum>anoxic really is maintenance free and the water never goes out of balance.
    Year before last the Drum filter broke in mid-summer (really crap design by manufacturer) It took me a good 3 to 4 weeks to re-engineer it and get more suitable parts. I switched off all pumps and just left air running. (Stopped feeding obviously)
    Water went green but fish seemed quite happy.
    Fixed drum, re-started everything and started feeding immedately. Water cleared in a few days and I tested parameters the following week. Still all perfect. Not something you could do with traditional aerobic filtration.

    So there we are, 5 years Anoxic this summer. No fish deaths, no water changes, no scrapes or parasite infestations, no paraquat or whatever it is people stick in their ponds
    Just a pond with healthy, happy fish I can feed and dangle my legs in surrounded by dragonflies.
    So glad I discovered Anoxic during the build back in 2012 (My pond actually took 5 years to build!) for which I'm eternally grateful to Syd's MankySankey re-write of Kevin Novak's work.
    Cheers - Pete
    Last edited by Pet; 19-03-2019 at 08:15 PM. Reason: Correcting spelling of "Syd" :)

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  30. #136
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion john1's Avatar
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    Hi Pete,very interesting read I to have an anoxic though not as many baskets as you.
    I dont trickle in out though I do a top up now and again and tend to leave the koi alone.
    Find it interesting you go from drum to anoxic with no bio chamber,do you have any photos of your pond Pete?
    John

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  32. #137
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    Hi John,
    Anoxic is the bio.
    During the build before I'd discovered anoxic I'd already planned (and built) for two return "troughs" from the drum which were going to have bubbling plastic media, I then found anoxic and quite by chance the troughs were just the right size for baskets so I have quite a few more than would be required for the pond size and fish load.
    I had a full documented pond build on the "koimag" forum before it became un-usable. Still have it documented in a facebook album which should be publicly viewable.
    https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...1&l=1182e8d048

    Cheers - Pete

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  34. #138
    Thanks for that Pete,

    May I use some of the pictures from your build in the new on-line Anoxic Filtration course I'm currently writing for Koi Organisation International? I'll give you full credit for any that I use.

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  36. #139
    Junior Member Rank = Fry Pet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manky Sanke View Post
    Thanks for that Pete,

    May I use some of the pictures from your build in the new on-line Anoxic Filtration course I'm currently writing for Koi Organisation International? I'll give you full credit for any that I use.
    Of course you can Syd.

    One thing I didn't say was in your test/analysis one comment was the GH was fairly high however the water had only cleared about 12 hours previously from a good dose of clay which might have pushed the GH/KH TDS up higher than normal?

    My pond is running 2 x 12,000 litre pumps through the drum which is pretty much all the drum can handle, water returns via a shower bar dropping about 8" onto the first lot of baskets sat under the drum filter. Showering the water seemed a better way of baffling a high flow from the drum (breaking surface tension) rather than returning it under the water line with the added bonus of more oxygen.

    Anything not clear from my images let me know.
    I've also added a pdf of your water results from last year for anyone that's interested.

    Cheers - Pete
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by Pet; 19-03-2019 at 08:52 PM.

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  38. #140
    Thanks for that Pete,

    I'm currently writing two new courses which will compliment my Water Quality course - Advanced Filtration Techniques and a second one which will specialise on Anoxic Filtration. I have to finish the Advanced Filtration course first because I already have a waiting list for it and then I can finalise the Anoxic Filtration course for those students who want to progress onto that one. So I'll get onto finalising that one later, hopefully, in the next few weeks.

    As for the report on your water sample. Your very low ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels are a testament to how effective anoxic filtration is at reducing these values to near zero. I'll also add these into the course literature to show what potential users could expect.

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