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  1. #21
    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai hippo's Avatar
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    As someone considering the Anoxic route for my next re-furb , I think this is a fantastic debate . Well done to those who have them for giving an honest appraisal of their results so far .

    Just an observation of my own , albeit from the sidelines , I wouldnt say they were particularly cheap to build , from the construction threads Ive read so far , given the cost of materials , laterite , pipework , liner ect ect . The cost adds up !

    Like many others , I`ll be watching this debate with interest ! Keep up the good work , folks !!
    Colin

    2500 Gallon Fibreglass Pond
    Draco Solum 16 , 400l Bio Chamber

  2. #22
    Me again
    I don't like grey areas so I'm going to write what I believe about anoxic filtration and you can all shout at me I honestly don't mind, it's all in the pursuit of the truth!

    Do anoxic filters remove ammonia? Yes
    Do they remove nitrates? Yes
    Do they remove as much nitrates as bakki showers? No
    Do they bring other benefits of bakki showers? No
    If well maintained do they cause problems? No
    If they're allowed to build up with poorly mechanically filtered waste could they cause problems? Yes
    Are they a cheap option? No
    Do you still need water changes? Yes

    DISCUSS

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  4. #23
    Hi John, I would think a direct comparison on which removes the most nitrates would be almost impossible to measure. How would you decide what quantity of biocenosis baskets equated to a particular bakki shower to make the tests which would show which performed better and what lph water flow to use as your baseline? Surely the effectiveness of any filtration system is determined by its size in relation to the volume of the pond, it's flow rate ie how often is it turning over the full volume of water in the pond and how clean it's owner keeps it? For example my pond is 3400 litres and my anoxic filter is 900 litres, so that's a pretty big anoxic in relation to the pond. Does this mean that if I had built a smaller anoxic filter I would expect it to have less "biological filtration power", I would presume that to be true. In the same way if I fitted a truly enormous bakki shower to my pond I would expect better results than if I fitted one that was much smaller.
    Here's what I think. Whatever filtration method you choose the most important thing to make sure of is that it will be "big enough" for the pond and the fish stock levels in that pond. There are a lot of available systems and like Dave says the best way to choose one is not just to go to the shop and let a salesman convince you that a particular filter is definitely the one for you. In my experience you will come out of the shop with a pressure filter Instead join a forum, use google and do plenty of research and most importantly try and visit some koi ponds to see filtration in action and get advice from people who have systems up and running that work. Keep an open mind and remember no two ponds are the same, even if you build an identical copy of someone else's pond you will be building it in your garden not theirs, so it won't be identical as it will be affected by its environment.
    I'm unfortunate in that I'm not building a pond from scratch, but rather trying to improve a poorly designed existing pond within the confines of a small area of my garden and a limited budget. My decision to go with anoxic filtration was affected by factors that may not be applicable for other people, for example the neighbours behind can often be heard muttering about the relatively quiet noise of my waterfall to each other so imagine their reaction if I built a large bakki shower straight behind the fence! I like building things but DETEST cleaning of any kind and so the anoxic appeals to me in that way.
    I don't think that my anoxic filter will outperform any other type of biological filter, but I do think at the moment at least that it's a viable alternative. Over the course of the next few months I hope to accumulate data to support this belief, but one way or another I will find out if it works for me. But then even if it does work for my setup that doesn't necessarily mean it will work for everyone as like I said every pond is different. Different sizes, shapes, depths, water temps, water flow patterns, exposure to sunlight, wind chill, stocking levels, pump sizes and water flow rates, different tap water going in, different food brands and amounts fed, the list is endless. All I can say is do lots of research, try to make an informed choice on what will work best for you, but don't be too surprised if you encounter unforeseen problems as the mysterious art of successful filtration is all part of the fascination of fish keeping

  5. #24
    Firstly, I think you're under selling anoxic, I'd say it's a lot better than a lot of bio filtration in that it reduces nitrates. Neither my bead or Nexus do that.
    But I'd agree efficiency is based on size, let's say an average bakki shower has a footprint of about a third of a square meter, you wouldn't get many anoxic baskets in that space and hence would not remove much of anything. Whereas a bakki of that size should give you all the bio you need for a pretty big pond.

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  7. #25
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
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    Simon - 40 baskets on a 750 gallon system; just roughly scaling that up to a 10,000 gallon pond with some 50 Koi and we are at 400 baskets... Now factor in that Ammonia production is linked to bodyweight and the average fish in the 10,000 gallon pond are maybe twice the body weight .. So shall we say 800 baskets??

    Now that’s a lot of Cat litter …

    Have you considered that spreading things too widely may have a negative effect ? - really something pond specific for your other thread rather than distract from the generic points in this one,

    Just thinking about water; would be interested in feedback on whether KH depletion is improved when running Anoxic..

    Dave

  8. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Davej View Post
    .. So shall we say 800 baskets??

    Now that’s a lot of Cat litter …
    And approximately £4,000 of laterite

  9. #27
    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai hippo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davej View Post
    Simon - 40 baskets on a 750 gallon system; just roughly scaling that up to a 10,000 gallon pond with some 50 Koi and we are at 400 baskets... Now factor in that Ammonia production is linked to bodyweight and the average fish in the 10,000 gallon pond are maybe twice the body weight .. So shall we say 800 baskets??

    Now that’s a lot of Cat litter …

    Have you considered that spreading things too widely may have a negative effect ? - really something pond specific for your other thread rather than distract from the generic points in this one,

    Just thinking about water; would be interested in feedback on whether KH depletion is improved when running Anoxic..

    Dave
    Most of the literature Ive read quotes 1 basket per adult koi . I`m considering a smallish filter of around 20 baskets for my 2000 gallon pond (when I re-furb it) , and running in conjunction with the Eazypod I already have . Do these proportions sound reasonable ??
    Colin

    2500 Gallon Fibreglass Pond
    Draco Solum 16 , 400l Bio Chamber

  10. #28
    I think Dave Collins is doubling up on that after running anoxic for a couple of years.


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  11. #29
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hippo View Post
    Most of the literature Ive read quotes 1 basket per adult koi . I`m considering a smallish filter of around 20 baskets for my 2000 gallon pond (when I re-furb it) , and running in conjunction with the Eazypod I already have . Do these proportions sound reasonable ??
    Hiya

    I was only responding to a comment Simon made about the number of baskets he runs.

    An "adult" Koi can range between a kilo in weight and 10+ kilos in weight, feed can range between 1% of this body weight and maybe 4%, this food can vary between say 30% and 50% protein, summer water temps can range between 16C and 24C..

    All are factors on the amount of ammonia being produced and the capacity required of the filters

    Dave

  12. #30
    that's an interesting point Dave, as the filter is made using one basket per adult fish it should run on 50 baskets. so the filter should only need to be as big as whats needed to hold the baskets. but saying that how fast could a filter that size run the water though it without messing up the cat litter? or how fast would it have to flow for the baskets to remove the ammonia to keep up with the koi thats making it.

    i will let you know what i find out as i run mine as i have 20 fish and 20 baskets at this moment.

  13. #31
    I think Dave's point is that an "adult" fish could eat between 3g of protein (1% of a 1kg fish eating 30% protein food) and 200g of protein (4% of a 10kg fish eating 50% protein food) a day and would produce a proportional amount of ammonia. So does one basket have to deal with the ammonia from 3g of protein or from 200g? I don't want to put words in Dave's mouth so I'd say the one basket per adult fish is a meaningless measure (and I promise to never ever quote it again )


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  14. #32
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnKitching View Post
    I think Dave's point is that an "adult" fish could eat between 3g of protein (1% of a 1kg fish eating 30% protein food) and 200g of protein (4% of a 10kg fish eating 50% protein food) a day and would produce a proportional amount of ammonia. So does one basket have to deal with the ammonia from 3g of protein or from 200g? I don't want to put words in Dave's mouth so I'd say the one basket per adult fish is a meaningless measure (and I promise to never ever quote it again )


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    Yep, that's about the score. Filtration needs will be similarly skewed with a traditional system BUT the advantage there is you can get a good idea of the stock from your pond visits.

    Dave

  15. #33
    Hi John,
    I'll play

    Do anoxic filters remove ammonia? Yes
    Do they remove nitrates? Yes
    Do they remove as much nitrates as bakki showers? No Proof, examples please
    Do they bring other benefits of bakki showers? No Explain please
    If well maintained do they cause problems? No
    If they're allowed to build up with poorly mechanically filtered waste could they cause problems? Yes Proof please
    Are they a cheap option? No Examples please
    Do you still need water changes? Yes


  16. #34
    Hahaha. Give me time


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  17. #35
    So my pond filtration currently consists of a drum for mechanical and biocensis baskets for bio. Does it work? Yes. Could it work better, yes.

    The problem I have is not enough turnover but this is entirely my fault. Currently I only turnover every 6 hours. The pond parameters this morning are ammonia 0.02mg/l, nitrite 0.07mg/l and nitrate 27mg/l, pH 7.2 and 16°C.

    The anoxic filter needs to be turned over quicker to reduce further the parameters. Hopefully this Springs project to put the anoxic filter outside, with more baskets and a few plants will accomplish this.

    The parameters are helped a bit by the recycling but at the moment it's only about 1,500 liters a day with a top up of 300 liters a day RO water, so a water "change" of 4.2% of volume a day.

  18. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Collins View Post
    Hi John,
    I'll play

    Do anoxic filters remove ammonia? Yes
    Do they remove nitrates? Yes
    Do they remove as much nitrates as bakki showers? No Proof, examples please
    Do they bring other benefits of bakki showers? No Explain please
    If well maintained do they cause problems? No
    If they're allowed to build up with poorly mechanically filtered waste could they cause problems? Yes Proof please
    Are they a cheap option? No Examples please
    Do you still need water changes? Yes

    OK, remember you asked for it ...

    According to Manky Sanke here:
    Ammonia
    a 50cm fish can produce 1 teaspoon of ammonia solution in 12 hours (he says standard strength which I’m taking to be 9.5%)
    According to Wikipedia here:
    Teaspoon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    a teaspoon is 4.9ml
    So a 50cm fish is producing 0.931 g/day of ammonia (4.9 * 0.095 * 2)
    Meaning per metre of fish 1.862 g / day of ammonia is produced (0.93 * 2)

    According to DaveJ original research here:
    http://www.koiforum.co.uk/water-trea...html#post48682
    A bakki shower with 70kg of BHM can process 12.35 g / day of ammonia (130 * 0.095)
    So 70 kg of BHM can process ammonia from 6.63 m of koi per day (12.35 / 1.862)
    I believe a single width four tier bakki shower could hold 120kg of BHM so a single bakki shower with a footprint of 0.3m2 (1000mm x 300mm) could process the ammonia from 11.37m of koi (6.63 / 70 * 120)
    So a bakki shower can process 37.9 meters of koi per square meter of footprint (11.37 / 0.3)

    According to Dave Collins original research here:
    http://www.koiforum.co.uk/water-trea...tml#post120522
    20m of koi requires 90 anoxic baskets
    According to brian1962 original research here:
    http://www.koiforum.co.uk/water-trea...ter-build.html
    24 anoxic baskets require a footprint of 2.16m2 (2.4 x 0.9)
    So 90 baskets would require 8.1 m2 (2.16 / 24 * 90)
    So an anoxic filter can process 2.469 meters of koi per square meter of footprint (20 / 8.1)

    So if we compare bakki shower to anoxic filter the bakki shower is 1,535% as efficient (or 15.35 times) as an anoxic filter (37.9 / 2.469)

    As shown here:
    Bacteria House Filter Media - Bakki House
    several all Japan Grand Champions have been grown in ponds with bakki showers.
    This article also discusses evidence of the intangible benefits of bakki showers.
    As shown by this Google search:
    No results found for +"all japan champion koi" +"anoxic filtration"
    Zero all japan Champions have been grown in ponds with anoxic filtration (I realise how tenuous this is and only add it as a joke!)

    You asked for proof that bakki showers are better than anoxic filters, you got it.
    Your turn

  19. #37
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Collins View Post
    So my pond filtration currently consists of a drum for mechanical and biocensis baskets for bio. Does it work? Yes. Could it work better, yes.

    The problem I have is not enough turnover but this is entirely my fault. Currently I only turnover every 6 hours. The pond parameters this morning are ammonia 0.02mg/l, nitrite 0.07mg/l and nitrate 27mg/l, pH 7.2 and 16°C.

    The anoxic filter needs to be turned over quicker to reduce further the parameters. Hopefully this Springs project to put the anoxic filter outside, with more baskets and a few plants will accomplish this.

    The parameters are helped a bit by the recycling but at the moment it's only about 1,500 liters a day with a top up of 300 liters a day RO water, so a water "change" of 4.2% of volume a day.
    Dave

    Nearly 30% of water being changed /recycled via the RO each week - At this time of year?

    Am I missing something - Why? Is that what's needed to keep the parameters on track?

    Do you think with the drum the need for exchange will reduce?

    Dave

  20. #38
    Just a quick thought on a different area to the footprints of bakki vs anoxic. What about aesthetics and noise levels? I'm sure that for some people the noise of a bakki shower might be a bit too much? They're also not the prettiest things in the world either! are these things worth consideration when incorporating a pond into a garden? Is the pond the only consideration or is it important how the pond sits in it's environment, how it complements the rest of the garden?

  21. #39
    Moderator Rank = Supreme Champion miles41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon123 View Post
    Just a quick thought on a different area to the footprints of bakki vs anoxic. What about aesthetics and noise levels? I'm sure that for some people the noise of a bakki shower might be a bit too much? They're also not the prettiest things in the world either! are these things worth consideration when incorporating a pond into a garden? Is the pond the only consideration or is it important how the pond sits in it's environment, how it complements the rest of the garden?
    Slightly off topic, but I agree Simon, as much I'd love a bakki, I do worry about the noise and 'looks'. That's not to say I wouldn't have one though in the future!
    1630 Gallon raised pond
    4" 'Avenue' bottom drain
    Estro sieve
    Econobead EB60 bead filter
    Sequence 18000 pump, 6000 pump on skimmer line
    Elecro 2kW in-line heater
    Evolution Aqua 70 air pump
    Standard wall skimmer
    Hozelock Vorton 55watt UV
    and some nice koi

  22. #40
    Whoosh went the goal posts
    Seriously, that's a fair point.


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