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Thread: Water softners

  1. #1
    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai Sim's Avatar
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    Water softners

    Hi all
    I'm making some changes to my pond, I live in an area with really hard water and my filters and pipework suffer with calcium build up.
    I have an RO unit that I haven't yet connected but wondered if anyone has put a water softer on there top up.
    Is this a good idea or would it give different problems ?
    Thanks simon



  2. #2
    IMHO (and a little experience).
    Water softener before RO in a hard water area is essential or you destroy membranes.
    However, with a good softener I honestly believe there is no need for RO. You get all the benefits and none of the risks.
    I removed my RO a couple of years or so ago.
    I’ve posted on here lots about my findings.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai Sim's Avatar
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    Hi John
    Thanks for the reply.
    I couldn't get anything when I searched.
    When the water goes through a softer do you still go through a pre filter and carbon etc before or after.
    Does the softners leave any salt traces in your water.
    Also do you do anything else to your water if you have removed your RO.
    Sorry so many questions :-)

  4. #4

    Water softners

    I used to go softener, Pre filters, carbon filters (chlorine is bad for membranes too) RO, pond.
    There is a little salt left but it’s minimal.
    I add nothing else now, I used to have a sophisticated bicarbonate dosing system but no need now as the softened water has plenty of KH.
    Last edited by JohnKitching; 25-01-2019 at 09:45 PM.

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  6. #5
    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai Sim's Avatar
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    Ok that sounds a lot simpler than the RO route.
    So just plug in my softners and then pre filter carbon filter and pond.
    Thanks for the reply really helpful, we live in Berkshire and I think the water here has got worst over the last few years.

  7. #6
    Yeah, it’s simpler and in my opinion better.
    You should probably listen to the opposing views before you decide though. A lot of people think I’m wrong (but I’m not Water softners)

  8. #7
    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai Sim's Avatar
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    Thanks for the info hopefully others will post and add to the thread either for or against.

  9. #8
    Come on .... lots of you have spent a fortune on RO (as I did) .... tell me how wrong I’ve got it Water softners

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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnKitching View Post
    Come on .... lots of you have spent a fortune on RO (as I did) .... tell me how wrong I’ve got it Water softners
    So what’s the PH, GH & TDS of your pond?

  12. #10

    Water softners

    Quote Originally Posted by keithatrax View Post
    So what’s the PH, GH & TDS of your pond?
    Typically ...
    pH around 7.7
    GH under 1 dH
    I don’t check TDS (as I don’t think it matters)
    KH 7 dH
    Ammonia unmeasurable on a Palintest
    Nitrite 0.04 ppm

    I’m quite happy with pH “up there” as I think at my levels the nitrite is more toxic than the ammonia.
    I base this on in my pond I find that as KH (and pH) go up my nitrite comes down. But higher pH makes ammonia more toxic. I aim for a balance rather than minimising ammonia toxicity as some do.
    I’m very happy with lots of KH to avoid the danger of pH crashes without the need to add bicarbonate.

    [edit, I was using mixed units when I first wrote this without saying so. Sorry]
    Last edited by JohnKitching; 26-01-2019 at 02:23 PM.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Sim View Post
    Hi all
    I'm making some changes to my pond, I live in an area with really hard water and my filters and pipework suffer with calcium build up.
    I have an RO unit that I haven't yet connected but wondered if anyone has put a water softer on there top up.
    Is this a good idea or would it give different problems ?
    Thanks simon
    Hi Simon
    Have a look through these

    http://www.yumekoi.com/images/stories/pdfs/aug_2003.pdf

    Magazine Articles Written By Mike Snaden

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnKitching View Post
    Typically ...
    pH around 7.7
    GH under 1 dH
    I don’t check TDS (as I don’t think it matters)
    KH 7 dH
    Ammonia unmeasurable on a Palintest
    Nitrite 0.04 ppm

    I’m quite happy with pH “up there” as I think at my levels the nitrite is more toxic than the ammonia.
    I base this on in my pond I find that as KH (and pH) go up my nitrite comes down. But higher pH makes ammonia more toxic. I aim for a balance rather than minimising ammonia toxicity as some do.
    I’m very happy with lots of KH to avoid the danger of pH crashes without the need to add bicarbonate.

    [edit, I was using mixed units when I first wrote this without saying so. Sorry]

    These are my parameters using RO


    Typically ...
    pH around 6.85-6.9
    GH 1 dH
    TDS 60-90
    KH 1 dH
    Ammonia unmeasurable API
    Nitrite 0.10 ppm API (not easy to see on the colour card but at the height of feeding it’s in-between 0 - 0.25)

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  16. #13
    I would be very interested to hear Mike’s view on softening water rather than ROing it.
    I absolutely agree with Mike on soft water being good but I’m fairly convinced you get all the benefit without removing the KH.

    Keith, your parameters are excellent. Do you think you gain anything by being on the cusp of a pH crash?
    Having tried both ways I would definitely choose the water chemistry I have.

  17. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnKitching View Post
    I would be very interested to hear Mike’s view on softening water rather than ROing it.
    I absolutely agree with Mike on soft water being good but I’m fairly convinced you get all the benefit without removing the KH.

    Keith, your parameters are excellent. Do you think you gain anything by being on the cusp of a pH crash?
    Having tried both ways I would definitely choose the water chemistry I have.
    Mikes views on softening water

    “You would be forgiven for thinking that you could use an 'ionexchange' water softener to make your pond water soft, but in reality this would prove to offer no significant benefits, because as the technique suggests, you would be quite simply 'ion-swapping'. what is ion exchange? Ion exchange is where the water softener swaps Calcium and Magnesium ions for Sodium ions. A popular misconception with water softeners is that they put salt into the water, which simply isn't true. The salt (Sodium Chloride) is used to regenerate the ion-exchange resins during a flushing process, once their capabilities are exhausted. The problem with water softeners is the fact that they ion swap, rather than simply removing them. This means that by swapping ions on a one for one basis, the TDS level remains exactly the same, when the aim of the game is to lower the TDS. But, by using a 'Reverse-Osmosis' (R/O) plant, the water can be completely stripped of all minerals and contaminants, essentially producing pure H2O, or distilled water.”

    John the thought of a PH crash doesn’t really bother me as I don’t think this would happen overnight. The PH is controlled by a controller and the KH is checked weekly during the feeding/growing season.

  18. #15
    For the first time ever I disagree with Mike.
    My goal is not to reduce TDS it’s to make soft water.

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  20. #16
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Malcolm Green's view on water softening:

    https://www.koicarp.org.uk/koi_carp_myths.htm

  21. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    Malcolm Green's view on water softening:

    https://www.koicarp.org.uk/koi_carp_myths.htm
    Interesting they think soft water means low KH .... it doesn’t.
    RO gives a low KH, using a softener doesn’t.

  22. #18
    What I’d love to see (genuinely) is someone who’s tried both and opted for RO.
    Lots of people who have only tried RO and think it’s good.

  23. #19
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    What I'd love to see is a real explanation as to what does what.....

    None of the Koi Dealer sites really explain which equipment does what and why one is so much more expensive than the other.... Well, either they don't explain, or they just miss things out.

    For example:

    Purifier 1 (£90) removes:
    Pesticides,
    herbicides,
    THMs,
    VOCs,
    PCBs, Copper,
    Lead
    Iron,
    *Chloromines


    But doesn't explain why the * next to Chloramines and doesn't mention Chlorine.


    Purifier 2 (£281) removes:
    Dirt,
    Sand
    Rust,
    Chlorine,
    Odour,
    Organic Contaminants,
    Pesticides and Chemicals,

    Trihalomethanes,
    Pesticides,
    Volatile Organic Chemicals
    99.95% of Giardia and Cryptosporidium Cysts.


    But doesn't mention Chloramines.


    Purifier 3 (£280) removes:
    Pesticides,
    Insecticides,
    VOCs,
    reduces Chloramine*,
    THMs,
    COPPER,
    ALUMINIUM SULPHATE
    some MANGANESE


    But doesn't mention Chlorine

    Dechlorinator 4 (£300) removes:
    Chlorine,
    chloramine,
    Pesticides,
    Herbicides
    Insecticides.



    Dechlorinator 5 (£110) removes:
    * Chlorine
    * Chloramine
    * Bromine
    * Malachite Green
    * Many dyes
    * Colour, e.g. humic acids
    * Organics, e.g proteins
    * Antibiotics
    * Hormones


    6 stage Reverse Osmosis Plant 6 (£325) removes:
    Everything listed for all of the purifiers above combined,
    Reduces TDS from circa 95ppm & KH11 (bad for growing Koi) to TDS 11ppm and KH2 (brilliant for growing Koi)..... depending on what you read!


    Then there's others labelled either as Purifiers or Dechlorinators that don't have any write up about what they remove.


    How the hell is anyone supposed to have any idea about what they're buying, why they need to buy it, why different models appear to remove different things even though the prices are all over the place, why there's such a grey area between "Dechlorinators" and "Water Purifiers", why some dealers seem to recommend one over another, or both?

    Why do some mention chloramines and not chlorine, or vice versa? Does it mean they don't remove Chlorine or has it just been missed off the list?

    Of all the lists above, which things are important to remove and what things don't really matter?

    Why do some say "not for drinking water use" when they appear to do exactly the same thing and contain exactly the same equipment as drinking water purifiers?

    The whole thing is so confusing I've almost given up with it even to the extent I wonder if some of it is snake oil.

    Out of the 5 products above, ignoring flow rates and prices for now, which one would you buy and why?

    For me, Purifier 2 looks best because it has the longest list of bad things it removes, but why does it remove Chlorine but no mention of Chloramines?

    I am really lost with all this, which is why I just stick to ST crystals for now.
    Last edited by RS2OOO; 26-01-2019 at 06:34 PM.

  24. #20
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    Yes your quite right about all these different purfiers.
    I used to put RO water in my pond years ago but gave up as I wasn't around enough to keep and eye on it.
    I just pre filter and carbon filter now.
    The problem is the hard water means after a while the k1 sinks and has to be replaced in the nexus the air lines block (Have to clean them twice a year). If I put a water softer on the this would stop, I could then just use RO water and normal water to run into the pond without to many issues.
    I don't really want to be worrying about the waterall the time.
    A water softner would help to protect the RO, If I do as Mike does 75% RO and 25% normal water it should be pretty stable, better for the koi and less maintenance

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