Welcome to Koi Forum. Is this your first visit? Register
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 50
  1. #1
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Mature Champion pip895's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Nr Farnham, Surrey
    Posts
    2,052
    Thanks / Likes
    801

    Deep bio chamber

    I have seen comercial bio chambers more than 2m high but I'm not sure of the method of agitation they were using. Has any one experience of a biochamber working with standard aeration that is say 1.5m deep?

    JBR cant manufacture above ~1.1m - so any ideas on who we could go to, to get one made - we would really prefer fabricated rather than built for this application as space is at a premium.


    6000g in ground koi pond
    +3000g lily/Anoxic pond attached
    29 koi (40 to 65cm)
    Bottom drain, Mid water & Skimmer to Drum
    JBR boichamber->Blue eco 500 pump ->below surface return.
    Blue Eco 240 -> Large MB -> Waterfall -> Planted Anoxic pond (25 baskets)

  2. Thanks Jamesvg Thanked / Liked this Post
  3. #2
    added depth just makes it flow easier and it also requires less air, ive got 450 litres of k1 flowing easily from 2 diffusers in the bottom, both powered by the same air pump and its only a 70.
    Ive just been talking to DaveJ, im sure he wont mind me saying, that he has a massive block built, bio chamber thats 1.5m deep, so he will be able to answer.
    I think if it was me id just build a block built chamber and fibre glass it.
    Mines a JBR made one, iirc its 1.5 long x 1m high x .075 m wide, and really its at the limit of what you could make from that kind of material. I have had to add extra strengthening due to the water weight bellying it out.

    Actually im sure there are 1 or 2 huge block built bio chambers on youtube working on standard aeration.

  4. Thanks pip895, lee63, freddyboy Thanked / Liked this Post
  5. #3
    heres one, not one of the ones i was thinking of but looks good.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8yaOG0mVlE

  6. Thanks pip895 Thanked / Liked this Post
  7. #4
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    7,322
    Thanks / Likes
    766
    There isnt a big problem with a deep chamber but the air pumps need to be capable of delivering at depth; some are better than others!!

    The Bio chamber in the main fish house tank runs along one side and is 1.5m deep. Running three HiBlow 80's in there through weighted Japanese hose air bars.

    The main thing wit any chamber is trying to "tune" it to give the optimum results, from a lot of practical testing I do believe that some chamber designs are inherently more efficient than others, especially when you start to increase the flow rates through them.

    Dave

  8. Thanks pip895, lee63, freddyboy Thanked / Liked this Post
  9. #5
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Mature Champion pip895's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Nr Farnham, Surrey
    Posts
    2,052
    Thanks / Likes
    801
    Quote Originally Posted by Davej View Post
    There isnt a big problem with a deep chamber but the air pumps need to be capable of delivering at depth; some are better than others!!

    The Bio chamber in the main fish house tank runs along one side and is 1.5m deep. Running three HiBlow 80's in there through weighted Japanese hose air bars.

    The main thing wit any chamber is trying to "tune" it to give the optimum results, from a lot of practical testing I do believe that some chamber designs are inherently more efficient than others, especially when you start to increase the flow rates through them.

    Dave
    I would be really interested in the design of your chamber Dave - do you have a thread in which it is described? How much media do you have in it?

    Pip
    6000g in ground koi pond
    +3000g lily/Anoxic pond attached
    29 koi (40 to 65cm)
    Bottom drain, Mid water & Skimmer to Drum
    JBR boichamber->Blue eco 500 pump ->below surface return.
    Blue Eco 240 -> Large MB -> Waterfall -> Planted Anoxic pond (25 baskets)

  10. Thanks lee63, Jamesvg, freddyboy Thanked / Liked this Post
  11. #6
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    7,322
    Thanks / Likes
    766
    Quote Originally Posted by pip895 View Post
    I would be really interested in the design of your chamber Dave - do you have a thread in which it is described? How much media do you have in it?

    Pip
    Hi. It is a very simple design, rectangular block built chamber, inlets at one end with baffles over each to disrupt the flow, same with the outlets at the far end.. the chamber has drilled plate dividers, these were a tad tricky to get right (but worth the effort) the idea being to get an overall restriction across the surface sufficient to induce a slight head loss from chamber to chamber.. theory being that at this point the flow would be across the whole plate..

    Around 25 % by volume in there at the moment, no need for more given the current load, room for another 600litres should the need arise..


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  12. Thanks pip895, familyman, lee63, freddyboy, sammy66 Thanked / Liked this Post
  13. #7
    crumbs...…... thats about a 4,000 litre bio chamber by my reckoning, with 1000 litres of k1 already, and room for another 600 litres

    you dont do anything by halves Dave do you !

  14. Thanks pip895, lee63, freddyboy Thanked / Liked this Post
  15. #8
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Mature Champion pip895's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Nr Farnham, Surrey
    Posts
    2,052
    Thanks / Likes
    801
    Thank for that David - That is quite some chamber! So its 1.5m high how long and wide is it, it looks enormous! What do you think the total drop is across all 4 chambers? Do you just have one 4" input and output or multiples? How much flow do you think you put through it? I had always assumed that the aeration and churning k1 was enough to ensure good mixing without the need for dividers and baffles.

    Really interesting thank you.
    6000g in ground koi pond
    +3000g lily/Anoxic pond attached
    29 koi (40 to 65cm)
    Bottom drain, Mid water & Skimmer to Drum
    JBR boichamber->Blue eco 500 pump ->below surface return.
    Blue Eco 240 -> Large MB -> Waterfall -> Planted Anoxic pond (25 baskets)

  16. Thanks freddyboy Thanked / Liked this Post
  17. #9
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    7,322
    Thanks / Likes
    766
    Quote Originally Posted by pip895 View Post
    Thank for that David - That is quite some chamber! So its 1.5m high how long and wide is it, it looks enormous! What do you think the total drop is across all 4 chambers? Do you just have one 4" input and output or multiples? How much flow do you think you put through it? I had always assumed that the aeration and churning k1 was enough to ensure good mixing without the need for dividers and baffles.

    Really interesting thank you.
    I am limited by the AEM drum, even with a few mods it is not happy with an actual flow rate m of any more than 20 -22,000L/hr which means I am running with a retention period in the filter chamber of around 10 mins and a turnover of under an hour.. The AEM was cheap and things were designed to run a bigger drum and run at a flow of 30-35k with a retention of 6 mins but so far I have struggled to get sufficient background pollutant levels to justify the cost.

    Just one active 4" input. Installed two but one is blanked.

    Across the bio filter I get a head loss drop of 30mm between the input and output chambers. Do you get good mixing without and whether it makes any difference?..... I honestly don't know in a bay of this size, particularly with the lengthy retention but the costs of the baffles and dividers were fractional in terms of build cost and IF they pinch just a few % in terms of overall efficiency then a worthwhile investment.

  18. Thanks lee63, freddyboy Thanked / Liked this Post
  19. #10
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    7,322
    Thanks / Likes
    766
    But why do you think you need more Bio?

    Dave

  20. Thanks freddyboy Thanked / Liked this Post
  21. #11
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Mature Champion pip895's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Nr Farnham, Surrey
    Posts
    2,052
    Thanks / Likes
    801
    The deep chamber isn't for me, its a friend who has a small deck under which he wants to hide the filter.

    However going off track a little - I think I may actually need more bio as I cant get rid of trace Ammonia - its currently about 0.01ppm free ammonia just detectable on the chemical tests (total ammonia) too.

    This is despite having just under 400ltrs of K1 and 250ltrs of micro K1 not to mention a bay of Jap mat and one of grog (40kg). I don't know if tracking could be a problem in my set up or insufficient turnover?? The retention in my pump fed multi bay (4m long 5 bay filter) is over seven minutes - I cant seem to get the flow through any higher - its just under 10,000l/h (measured directly by looking at the time to fill the chamber to a certain height) - total drop from first to last chamber is over 7cm - if I pump any more up the first bay just overflows to bypass... This is the multi bay configuration - any suggestions - the grog has only been in since October.

    multibay.JPG

    My other filter, a JBR bio chamber is gravity fed through 2x 4" inputs then pumped through 2" pipe directly to the koi pond. This filter has 250ltr of micro K1 and as the flow is actually higher, the retention works out to be under 2 min. Entire pond is turned over once in 1 hr 10min when the anoxic pond is bypassed as it is now.

    One thing is puzzling me - how come you are able to pull over 20k ltrs through your filter with only one 4" when I struggle to pull 15k ltrs through mine with two? When I had only one 4" attached I doubt I was pulling more than about 10k ltrs.. In fact I seem to hit a wall every time I try and exceed 10k ltrs through a 4" whether it is bottom drain or gravity feed through a multi bay - others don't seem to have the same problem??.

    Also how come my neighbour with nothing more than a filtoclear has lower ammonia levels in his pond than I do, despite having more koi/m3..

    May be I haven't given my filters a chance to get up to speed, some media is new and the rest has only been "got moving" relatively recently. maybe next year it will all come good.. The flow thing is still a puzzle though.
    6000g in ground koi pond
    +3000g lily/Anoxic pond attached
    29 koi (40 to 65cm)
    Bottom drain, Mid water & Skimmer to Drum
    JBR boichamber->Blue eco 500 pump ->below surface return.
    Blue Eco 240 -> Large MB -> Waterfall -> Planted Anoxic pond (25 baskets)

  22. Thanks freddyboy Thanked / Liked this Post
  23. #12
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    7,322
    Thanks / Likes
    766
    Quote Originally Posted by pip895 View Post
    The deep chamber isn't for me, its a friend who has a small deck under which he wants to hide the filter.

    However going off track a little - I think I may actually need more bio as I cant get rid of trace Ammonia - its currently about 0.01ppm free ammonia just detectable on the chemical tests (total ammonia) too.

    This is despite having just under 400ltrs of K1 and 250ltrs of micro K1 not to mention a bay of Jap mat and one of grog (40kg). I don't know if tracking could be a problem in my set up or insufficient turnover?? The retention in my pump fed multi bay (4m long 5 bay filter) is over seven minutes - I cant seem to get the flow through any higher - its just under 10,000l/h (measured directly by looking at the time to fill the chamber to a certain height) - total drop from first to last chamber is over 7cm - if I pump any more up the first bay just overflows to bypass... This is the multi bay configuration - any suggestions - the grog has only been in since October.

    multibay.JPG

    My other filter, a JBR bio chamber is gravity fed through 2x 4" inputs then pumped through 2" pipe directly to the koi pond. This filter has 250ltr of micro K1 and as the flow is actually higher, the retention works out to be under 2 min. Entire pond is turned over once in 1 hr 10min when the anoxic pond is bypassed as it is now.

    One thing is puzzling me - how come you are able to pull over 20k ltrs through your filter with only one 4" when I struggle to pull 15k ltrs through mine with two? When I had only one 4" attached I doubt I was pulling more than about 10k ltrs.. In fact I seem to hit a wall every time I try and exceed 10k ltrs through a 4" whether it is bottom drain or gravity feed through a multi bay - others don't seem to have the same problem??.

    Also how come my neighbour with nothing more than a filtoclear has lower ammonia levels in his pond than I do, despite having more koi/m3..

    May be I haven't given my filters a chance to get up to speed, some media is new and the rest has only been "got moving" relatively recently. maybe next year it will all come good.. The flow thing is still a puzzle though.

    Hiya,

    the input put side to the drum is from two bottom drains, the outlet between drum and Bio is a straight run of circa 4feet, I expect this could explain the flow issue, as soon as you introduce a few bends things take a bit hit with head loss..

    It isn’t easy getting a really accurate fix on levels without a colorimeter. The answer to your levels may be as simple as that. It could be flow related the only way of checking would be accurate testing to see hw big a swing you get through the feeding day and how much catch up the filters do overnight....

    it it could be that being un heated the filters don’t get up to speed?

    For sure agree that giving filters alters time to mature is pretty critical, the plan to wait to see how things pan out seems a good one..

    Dave

  24. Thanks pip895, lee63, freddyboy Thanked / Liked this Post
  25. #13
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Mature Champion pip895's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Nr Farnham, Surrey
    Posts
    2,052
    Thanks / Likes
    801
    Dave do you still have a shower on that pond as well as the 1000ltrs of K1? If so, is it now in series with the K1 chamber or separate - from the skimmer perhaps??

    If you do still have it do you think the shower is a critical part of the filtration - Its the one thing I haven't got - fitting one would be difficult unless I was to go for something like a roto shower.
    6000g in ground koi pond
    +3000g lily/Anoxic pond attached
    29 koi (40 to 65cm)
    Bottom drain, Mid water & Skimmer to Drum
    JBR boichamber->Blue eco 500 pump ->below surface return.
    Blue Eco 240 -> Large MB -> Waterfall -> Planted Anoxic pond (25 baskets)

  26. Thanks Davej Thanked / Liked this Post
  27. #14
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Nisai sammy66's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    swindon wilts
    Posts
    68
    Thanks / Likes
    50
    HI ALL, just need to ask , most of us are using drums and a moving bed for bio . has anyone got static media still in the filters .

  28. #15
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Mature Champion pip895's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Nr Farnham, Surrey
    Posts
    2,052
    Thanks / Likes
    801
    Quote Originally Posted by sammy66 View Post
    HI ALL, just need to ask , most of us are using drums and a moving bed for bio . has anyone got static media still in the filters .
    I had most of my K1 static untill reasonably recently - been having ongoing issues with trace Amonia and I noticed the.K1 in the one bay I had moving was darker and looked more mature so I made the decision to get it all dancing. At the same time I ditched my remaining flocor and added 40kg of grog.

    Time will tell wether it has all worked - though as always it's so difficult to know which intervention has worked - airation of the k1, adding the grog or upping the flow rate?? I've also added a couple of new fish for good measure.
    6000g in ground koi pond
    +3000g lily/Anoxic pond attached
    29 koi (40 to 65cm)
    Bottom drain, Mid water & Skimmer to Drum
    JBR boichamber->Blue eco 500 pump ->below surface return.
    Blue Eco 240 -> Large MB -> Waterfall -> Planted Anoxic pond (25 baskets)

  29. Thanks sammy66, familyman Thanked / Liked this Post
  30. #16
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Nisai sammy66's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    swindon wilts
    Posts
    68
    Thanks / Likes
    50
    THANKS PIP, i think its me just looking for things to do, my water test are good and the water is great looking ,it`s just the old filters had static media . AND IN( NL MODERN KOI BLOG) they still use static media as a big part of the filters .SO i am looking for any help with what anyone thinks of this.

  31. #17
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    7,322
    Thanks / Likes
    766
    Quote Originally Posted by pip895 View Post
    Dave do you still have a shower on that pond as well as the 1000ltrs of K1? If so, is it now in series with the K1 chamber or separate - from the skimmer perhaps??

    If you do still have it do you think the shower is a critical part of the filtration - Its the one thing I haven't got - fitting one would be difficult unless I was to go for something like a roto shower.
    Hi,

    No I am not running a shower on this set up; Wouldn't have been a fit with the objectives of peace and quiet and sensible running costs..

  32. Thanks pip895, lee63 Thanked / Liked this Post
  33. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by pip895 View Post
    I had most of my K1 static untill reasonably recently - been having ongoing issues with trace Amonia and I noticed the.K1 in the one bay I had moving was darker and looked more mature so I made the decision to get it all dancing. At the same time I ditched my remaining flocor and added 40kg of grog.

    Time will tell wether it has all worked - though as always it's so difficult to know which intervention has worked - airation of the k1, adding the grog or upping the flow rate?? I've also added a couple of new fish for good measure.

    My 2p's worth ….
    In my admittedly limited experience, grog in constantly submerged situations, just doesn't perform anywhere near as good as it can do when in a shower, I think most water will just track round it, instead of soaking through it, I dont know how that could be tested, maybe with some colour dye in water you could see if im right or wrong.

    I think you have ample media though tbh, same as Dave I think just more time, the cooler water will have held it back, but as the temps rise in spring it might just well grow as required and be ok.

    You can never seemingly have too much bio filtration though, so if it was me, and i could afford it, and if it was possible, and I had doubts, then id take the mature grog and put it in a shower and put more k1, in what is now the grog chamber.

  34. Thanks sammy66, pip895, lee63 Thanked / Liked this Post
  35. #19
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Mature Champion pip895's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Nr Farnham, Surrey
    Posts
    2,052
    Thanks / Likes
    801
    Quote Originally Posted by familyman View Post
    My 2p's worth ….
    You can never seemingly have too much bio filtration though, so if it was me, and i could afford it, and if it was possible, and I had doubts, then id take the mature grog and put it in a shower and put more k1, in what is now the grog chamber.
    It would definitely be a last resort for me - I have similar aspirations to Dave unobtrusive, quiet and efficient. I might try some grog in the bed of the stream perhaps??
    6000g in ground koi pond
    +3000g lily/Anoxic pond attached
    29 koi (40 to 65cm)
    Bottom drain, Mid water & Skimmer to Drum
    JBR boichamber->Blue eco 500 pump ->below surface return.
    Blue Eco 240 -> Large MB -> Waterfall -> Planted Anoxic pond (25 baskets)

  36. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by sammy66 View Post
    HI ALL, just need to ask , most of us are using drums and a moving bed for bio . has anyone got static media still in the filters .
    I dont like static media, because even if its after a drum filter, it will still collect fines, and then you have to clean it periodically or risk a bad bacteria build up.

    David

  37. Thanks sammy66, lee63 Thanked / Liked this Post
 

 
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:28 PM. Online Koi Mag Forum
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3
Copyright © 2019 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.

vBulletin Improved By vBFoster® (Lite Version), © UltimateScheme, Ltd.