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  1. #41
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Frimley Koi keeper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandlin View Post

    You wont find any qualified electrical engineer that is going to do this for you. That should tell you something, as should the fact that you actually can't buy a remote control socket that works in this manner, nor will you find this feature in any UK mains electrical product that has internal switching.
    Shows how much you know as most RCD waterproof sockets on sale today are what is referred to as 'latching' or 'passive' as in they won't switch off after a power cut where as an 'active' or 'non latching' one will switch off after a power cut.

    When the company originally called MK now called Honeywell MK (I think) brought out their Masterseal RCD waterproof sockets many years ago they had active non latching trips but more recently most manufacturers of RCD sockets and switch fused spurs have gone down the route of passive latching trips as more and more people need what they have connected to the RCD to restart automatically after a power cut. MK charge considerably more for their active non latching RCD waterproof sockets. Why? Probably because very few people want them these days? Supply and demand drives prices.

    Basically that is what altering this socket is doing. As I can't see the photos clearly enough on my phone at the moment I can't give an answer as to if I would be able to alter it or if it is even possible to alter it. From the photos there appears to be a microchip of some kind sitting on the PCB and without a proper look at it I won't be able to say one way or another.

    I do agree that altering anything from it's original state maybe not the best thing to do for obvious reasons but with all things considered if no safety features are being circumvented other than changing the socket to make it stay on after a power cut then personally it is not that much of an issue.

    Do a risk assessment on it, mark it up as altered apply a common sense and keep an eye on it. Keep the shed or room locked if you want to stop others from using it.

    Yes RCDs aren't the definitive answer to safety as they are only able to detect faults to earth. Fuses and MCBs protect against over loads and some faults to earth. So with a fuse or MCB plus an RCD that should be OK in most cases. There are also RCBOs which are a combination of an RCD and an MCB so it is a good alternative if it can be installed in your fuse board or consumer unit.

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  3. #42
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai Brandlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frimley Koi keeper View Post
    Shows how much you know as most RCD waterproof sockets on sale today are what is referred to as 'latching' or 'passive' as in they won't switch off after a power cut where as an 'active' or 'non latching' one will switch off after a power cut.

    (...)

    I do agree that altering anything from it's original state maybe not the best thing to do for obvious reasons but with all things considered if no safety features are being circumvented other than changing the socket to make it stay on after a power cut then personally it is not that much of an issue.

    That is not comparable. An RCD is NOT control gear. It doesn't actively create an ON condition. There isn't a scenario where the RCD can be open, an interruption to supply occurs and when power is restored the RCD defaults to a closed condition (effectively turning ON power where it was previously OFF). A passive RCD fails to its PREVIOUS STATE. It does not fail to ON. Exactly the same is true of modern switched fused spur units.

    By making this change in functionality, you ARE deliberately circumventing a safety system.

    You can continue to attack me for, as you put it "shows what you know", but you continue to demonstrate your lack of understanding. The fact remains, this is a stupid and dangerous thing to be advising someone else to do, especially when you clearly don't have the knowledge yourself.

  4. #43
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai Brandlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frimley Koi keeper View Post
    Shows how much you know as most RCD waterproof sockets on sale today are what is referred to as 'latching' or 'passive' as in they won't switch off after a power cut where as an 'active' or 'non latching' one will switch off after a power cut.

    (...)

    I do agree that altering anything from it's original state maybe not the best thing to do for obvious reasons but with all things considered if no safety features are being circumvented other than changing the socket to make it stay on after a power cut then personally it is not that much of an issue.

    That is not comparable. An RCD is NOT control gear. It doesn't actively create an ON condition. There isn't a scenario where the RCD can be open, an interruption to supply occurs and when power is restored the RCD defaults to a closed condition (effectively turning ON power where it was previously OFF). A passive RCD fails to its PREVIOUS STATE. It does not fail to ON. Exactly the same is true of modern switched fused spur units.

    You are attempting to change a Fail to OFF device to one that Fails to ON. This is clearly and demonstrably not the same as the RCDs that you refer to. By making this change in functionality, you ARE deliberately circumventing a safety system.

    You can continue to attack me for, as you put it "shows what you know", but you continue to demonstrate your lack of understanding. The fact remains, this is a stupid and dangerous thing to be advising someone else to do, especially when you clearly don't have the knowledge yourself.

  5. #44
    Moderator Rank = Supreme Champion Feline's Avatar
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    My POV is that failing to on is not an issue here whatsoever, because it would then be functioning exactly like any old 4 way extension socket! Your pond supply will already have the necessary circuit protection in place- if the RCD trips then this gadget will not be able to come back on because it won't actually have a power supply then. And if the thing plugged into it blows a fuse then what this thingy is doing is irrelevant to safety.

    However personally I don't think I could be bothered to try and alter something to make it work in that way. If I want to mess around then I would just badger my OH to code a Raspberry Pi to do it via relays. Unfortunately without wifi or ethernet in the filter house your options are more limited.

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  7. #45
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai Brandlin's Avatar
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    Hi feline. I understand your comments but sadly what is being suggested isn't like an extension lead. An extension lead would return to the state it was in before the power outtage - it doesn't effect the condition of the circuit at all. It wouldn't suddenly turn things ON that were previously OFF because of the power cut. Which is what will happen with the situations being suggested in modifying a socket here.

    Its true that on pond equipment the risk might be low, but i have seen far to many modified bits of kit being found in different places a few years down the line and no one knows whats been changed.

    I agree about the Pi. My son and I have a few, plus arduinos - great bits of educational kit too. The benefit of something like that is that you can include logic and additional sensing to ensure that you are remembering and restoring to the previous condition before the outtage. You can also detect if you have a dangerous condition before the device actually restores power. Best of all you can include a deadlock mode that overrides the other programming so you can have confidence that once in this mode you don't run the risk of accidentally energising the socket if you need to ensure it is off for maintenance etc. However none of that is what is being suggested.

  8. #46
    Guys,

    I'm really sorry I started this thread, I never thought it would cause problems.

    Brandlin I totally understand your point of view, and know you are just looking out for my and everyone else's best interests. Frimley is just responding to my request and trying to help, so ultimately this is my fault for asking this question.

    Frimley, thank you so much for trying to help, it's really appreciated, but I'm really sorry for drawing you into this conflict.

    Can we call it a day and put this thread to bed, you're both really good guys and just trying to help your fellow koi keepers out where you can.

    Jay

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  10. #47
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Frimley Koi keeper's Avatar
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    Thanks Feline and Jason.

    YHPM

  11. #48
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Frimley Koi keeper's Avatar
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    My final words on this matter as I can't be bothered to keep arguing -

    I'm not admitting defeat nor am I claiming victory.

    So let's just agree to disagree. Unless you don't agree with that either!!

    Life's too short for all this kind of shit.

    I would like to apologise if I have offended or upset anyone as maybe things got a bit more heated than they should have.

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  13. #49
    Jason, why not just extend the cabling to the pumps etc near to where you have your filter. Job done, no problem

  14. #50
    Dave,

    This is going to sound really lazy, but I currently have control panels for the pumps right next to the filters and these have a feed button which cuts the pump for 10 mins. All good I hear you cry. But I often want them off for longer and find it a pain to keep checking to see if the little blue light is on, I'd rather just able to control them totally myself.

    Lazy I know, but thats me.

    Jay

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  16. #51
    I was thinking of one of these, low tech I know but you can switch it off for as long as you want and after a power cut it's still on................


  17. #52
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion andikoi's Avatar
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    jason as you know i have the jebao and i know what you mean about the feed button,i boil my nexus sometime for 15 mins,i have one of these the 5 switch one and my control unit for the jebao sits right under it lol,i just flick the switch off and when im done switch back on and it starts at what it was set at before,simples,andi https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/17082294537...7753379&crdt=0

  18. #53
    Dave, what's that and where do I get one? New tech blows my tiny mind.

    Andi, I've used switch boxes in the past and always have issues with them, so went for old fashioned plug sockets. Lol.

    So Andi, is your pond still running? What's going on with the rebuild?

    Jay

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  20. #54
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion andikoi's Avatar
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    my pond is now in the hole,well the walls are,fish are in 500g qt with nexus and constant trickle in/out,weve lived here 20 years but back garden 60ftx 30ft has never really got finished,so we bought house 2 years ago and our mortgage deal is up so weve just remortgaged to get new pond done and finally do the garden all in one go,was a big decision as i know i have money coming in future from an inheritance and was planning on major rebuild then,but with walls giving way weve had to bring plans forwards and completely change them,i was having a 16 x 8 x 4ft.6" pond built in its own long building with a seating area at one end and filter house at the other,all down one side of garden with bifold doors to front,rough cost 10-12k,but now having to rebuild on part of old pond site but will be 20x10x4,will still have seating area and filter house but all now in a sort of square building on right of garden lol,cost upto 3k,i could put it down left side as i wanted but then would have to do the building part as and when i could,but as most of building is there already on right, a compromise was made,,enclosed a photo of garden as is,pond is going where decking area is and right under building,then roof will be extended and sides put on,existing filter room have the cladding taken off and will be seating area with a 4ft w x 3ft d window in pond and same on left side of pond and then my small window form old pond is going in front to face house,rest of garden is then getting paved,andi
    Attached Images Attached Images

  21. #55
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion andikoi's Avatar
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    pond pics doesnt look big but this is left side of garden,also new pond is 21ft x 11ft outer diameter to fit the 6mx3m boweld i have already bought lol,andi
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    Last edited by andikoi; 21-06-2018 at 08:57 AM. Reason: better photo

  22. #56
    Andi it will be so nice having a covered pond, great for heating and keeping bits and algae out, as well as stopping birds coming to drink from it and then shitting all over.

    You doing it all your self?

    Those figures sound very cheap, we worked out ours cost about 13k, but probably more as I actually stopped taking note at one point. We had 2k in just skip costs, and the window was 3k, 1k in concrete, 1k in filters (used), then blocks, pipework, valves, pumps, fibreglass and resin, etc etc etc, the list goes on and on.

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  24. #57
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion andikoi's Avatar
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    i was having a full slab and hollows but have rethought it,now having a 12" w x 8" reinforced ringbeam sat on 4" hardcore,i already have the new boxweld liner all filters and pumps form old pond plus new drum (to me lol),and most of building is done so its just extending roof to cover over where decking was £200,builder whos levelling garden and laying the slabs is going to do the graft on pond base i.e digging out and hardcore and ringbeam,then i will take over building pond out of sleepers,1ft down and 3 above £1200 in sleepers alone but the slab was £950 plus £500 for blocks then another few hundred for concrete to fill them,so probably £500 for him to do pond base plus sleepers £1200 then £480 for window glass from tuffx and then just have new pipe and fittings to buy,should come in under budget,he says hahaha,andi

  25. #58
    Awwwww, famous last words Andi.

    Sounds like a plan, you got an estimated finish date?

  26. #59
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion andikoi's Avatar
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    The day after never.its a koi pond.theyre never finished lol.andi

  27. #60
    Oh no, don't tell me that, I've promised the Mrs ours will be finished this weekend. Lol.

 

 
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