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Thread: electrics

  1. #1

    Question electrics

    Hi folks - sorry if this has been asked before. Don't have much time to search. I'm hoping the answer is fairly simple as I'm no electrician.

    I just want to run an electric supply from my conservatory to my shed which is about 10 metres away. I have 2 double sockets in the conservatory one of which is hardly ever used.

    I have actually had a quote for the job but it came back at £400. The quote was basically for coming off the socket (not sure if that would somehow be wired into the socket, or using an RCD), then through the wall and then having a junction box with another socket on it on the outside wall of the cons. ... armoured cable would be wired into that box and would then go along a fence line, around the back of the shed, then 4 outlets plus a light in the shed. The cable would have been about 15m long in that instance.

    Given the cost, I'm wondering, could I not drill the hole in the cons wall myself and attach a length of 'outdoor' cable to an RCD plugged into a cons. socket, then wire the other end into say a 6 outlet junction box (such as can be found on pond retailer websites)? Could I wire a shed light into one of the switches? Could I wire another socket into one of the switches for using the odd power tool in the shed? The cable would not pass across any areas used for cultivation so do I really need heavy duty stuff? (especially if I know it is there and although I am not planning to move for many years, would obviously remove it if I did...)

    I'm aware there are regs involved here.. Part P etc... am I right in thinking that an arrangement as described qualifies as temporary and as such bypasses such regs (and doesn't affect insurance)?



  2. #2
    Senior Member Rank = Yonsai Liam77's Avatar
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    Hi, I’m not an electrician but was a kitchen fitter when all the regs changed a few years ago. I think you will void your insurance if you do anything at all to the electrics, that’s why they bought in the regs. The way I’m doing it is to install everything under advice from a sparks so I know what I need where then I will pay him to come in, test it and then connect it all up to the fuse box. I know ponds are quite efficient these days but if you ever decide to heat it you will be pulling 10 times the current and maybe more. Things like shed lights are usually installed on 1.5mm cable and sockets run in 2.5. Hope this helps a bit

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  4. #3
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Grand Champion Andre Asagi's Avatar
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    I can usually read-up-on and teach myself things i need to do, or am interested in. For examples HTML/DHTML/CSS and website creation, rooting an android device, basic plumbing, power director video creation, navigating the new Sky layout etc but...

    I have failed a number of times to get my head around electrics. I don't mean installation. Just planning. Even to a point of being able to establish what i need/consider the options.

    But it's just bewildering.

    Has anyone (that isnt an electrician) actually read Part P ? It just refers to other documents, rather than giving specific guidelines to adhere to.

    Here is an example....

    "Non-notifiable work
    2.25m
    NOTE: Socket-outlets should
    not be located within 3m of a
    bath tub or shower tray
    2.7 Regulation 12(6A) sets out electrical installation work that is notifiable. All other electrical
    installation work is not notifiable – namely additions and alterations to existing installations outside
    special locations, and replacements, repairs and maintenance anywhere.
    2.8 Installing fixed electrical equipment is within the scope of Part P, even if the final connection is by
    a standard 13A plug and socket, but is notifiable only if it involves work set out in regulation 12(6A).
    For example:
    a. installing a built-in cooker is not notifiable work unless a new cooker circuit is needed
    b. connecting an electric gate or garage door to an existing isolator switch is not notifiable work,
    but installing a new circ
    P1

    ONLINE VERSION
    Application of Part P
    2.9 Installing prefabricated, modular wiring (for example for kitchen lighting systems) linked by plug and
    socket connectors is also within the scope of Part P, but again is notifiable only if it involves work
    set out in regulation 12 (6A)"




    Great. Glad that's cleared that up.


    Here is a link....


    https://www.gov.uk/government/upload..._AD_P_2013.pdf

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  6. #4
    Moderator Rank = Supreme Champion Feline's Avatar
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    You can perfectly legally do this work yourself without breaching the (now relaxed) part P regs .... BUT (and it is a big but) you MUST be competent to do so. The old saying goes that if you need to ask how, you shouldnt be doing it so get a sparkie in.

    I did my own pond electrics, including the ASHP. When I had a new kitchen fitted a couple of years ago the electrician took a look at my outdoor RCD which feeds the armoured cable and it’s connection to the ring main and was very happy to sign off on it for me.

    If you don’t know what you’re doing though then you could easily end up creating an unsafe installation. Where water and electricity are imvolved its not something you want to get wrong.

    I would definitely advise against having a non-armoured cable running to your shed. All it takes is rodents to get nibbling (and for some unfathomable reason they like nibbling rubber cable sheaths) and it will be unsafe. Its not difficult to use armoured instead of normal cable- you just buy the right glands for the ends and watch a youtube on how to fit them.

    Using a pond switch box to supply a socket is not a very good idea at all IMO. They also tend to have very low rated fuses inside them.

    Small junction box > armoured cable into shed > another junction box > cables to sockets and lights coming from that would be how I would do it. How you connect the first junction box to the mains would depend on if the circuit is already RCD protected and if it can take the load without its own spur etc. If theres an RCD in the circuit already and your entire pond equipment adds up to less than 2kW then simply plugging into an existing socket is possible (and as you say counts as temporary, you could simply cut off the plug if you sold the house etc.).
    Last edited by Feline; 29-08-2018 at 12:09 PM.

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  8. #5
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Grand Champion lee63's Avatar
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    I have my 17th edition (wiring regs cert) to probe competency but not part p. (When i was in the navy i did alot of sparking but had 0 quals for it so they made us all get 17th ed lol. But its true as feline says that any competant person can install (first fix and 2nd fix) electrics you just cant legally power up, test and certify it.
    I fully rewired my last house electrics chased out and first fix, made good and 2nd fixed, all tails connected into the consumer unit and all sockets/switches/fittings left open/hanging. A spark mate of mine come round and had a quick look at all connections, secured everything back up and powered up, did a test on each ring and then signed it off for me electrics

    what your planning/thinking is to run sn extension lead to your shed basically, i do not advise this at all. The way the spark who quoted you the work is going is tapping into the ring main on the conservatory. This would be ok providing the conservatory is on its own rcd on the house consumer unit. If its in fact ran from your kitchens ring main then again i do not advise this.
    As said above if your planning on having usable sockets and lights within the shed as well as running all the pond stuff on it thrn ideally it wants to be on its own line from the house consumer unit. Dont get me wrong ive had 2.5 grey twin and earth on a plug into an rcd plug in the house running down the garden in previous years ha ha it was ok as a temp set up but looking back it was a stupid idea.
    If your conny has its own breaker in your consumer unit then tap off the conny ring main, if not then i would strongly advise getting a proper armoured feed put in from the consumer. You can use normal twin and earth outdoors but it has to be in conjuit at in all areas where its exposed externally electrics

    I was lucky with this house as my garage has its own 30A armoured feed from the house to its own consumer unit. So all i had to do was take a feed/ring off that board for the pond so the pond is on its own breaker.
    Apologies for such a long one electrics


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Its always a work in progress

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  10. #6
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Frimley Koi keeper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clippo View Post
    I have actually had a quote for the job but it came back at £400. The quote was basically for coming off the socket (not sure if that would somehow be wired into the socket, or using an RCD), then through the wall and then having a junction box with another socket on it on the outside wall of the cons. ... armoured cable would be wired into that box and would then go along a fence line, around the back of the shed, then 4 outlets plus a light in the shed. The cable would have been about 15m long in that instance.
    £400 sounds quite reasonable to me as it going to be best part of a day's work plus parts then the guy's got to register it for Part P and give you a test certificate for the installation he's done.

    A day's labour can be anywhere between £160 and £250 +
    15m of SWA cable £50 to £100 depending on what size it is and whether it's 2 or 3 core SWA.
    2 glands for the SWA are about £10 for a pair.
    Waterproof socket - £20 to £100 depending on what make it is or if it's RCD protected or not plus is it a single or a double socket.

    That's between £240 and £460 without the wiring, sockets and lights etc. in the shed plus any fixings for the SWA etc.

    Also is that 15m run for the SWA allowing for going up and down etc. to get round, through and over things or is it a straight line between the house and the shed? as that 15m could easily be more like 20m or even more plus you always allow a bit extra as it's easier to cut a bit off than add a bit on if you are too short.

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  12. #7
    cheers all. Useful info... will have a think on best way to proceed.

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  14. #8
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Frimley Koi keeper's Avatar
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    Where abouts are you as prices can vary a lot in different parts of the country as London and inside the M25 will probably be the most expensive area.

    Don't need a full address just a town or county is good enough.

  15. #9
    Cheshire.

    Say I went for the installation of the 4 sockets in the shed... how could I incorporate a switchable junction box into that? Does the junction box just plug into a single outlet?

    Thinking of something like this:
    https://www.bradshawsdirect.co.uk/we...junction-boxes

  16. #10
    Moderator Rank = Supreme Champion Feline's Avatar
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    The switch boxes you have linked to would be wired directly into the junction box at the end of the armoured cable in the shed. A junction box is a plain (usually grey) little box with glands coming out of it.

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    Moderator Rank = Supreme Champion Feline's Avatar
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    I should probably add- if I were you I would not bother with a switch box anyway. Your life will be so much easier if you make sure you have a socket for each thing (and some spares for items you dont know you need yet) and just plug them in. The sockets will be switched anyway.

    This is mucho superior because:
    • you dont have fiddly tiny wires to contend with inside a switch box every time you want to swap over a pump or bit if kit.
    • If something trips your pond electrics you can completely unplug everything and try items one by one before you find which thing was to blame.
    • You can easily plug things in via a timer if you decide you want to.
    • If a fuse goes in an actual plug it is a heck of a lot easier to change than an entire blown switch box that makes your entire filtration system go offline.
    • many pumps etc. come with a fitted plug anyway- cutting it off can affect the warranty and a shop might refuse to take an item back.
    • You can plug in things that have a transformer plug on them

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  20. #12
    brilliant - yeah sounds much better. Will see if I can negotiate a bit and get someone professional to do it I think.

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  22. #13
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Frimley Koi keeper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andre Asagi View Post
    I can usually read-up-on and teach myself things i need to do, or am interested in. For examples HTML/DHTML/CSS and website creation, rooting an android device, basic plumbing, power director video creation, navigating the new Sky layout etc but...

    I have failed a number of times to get my head around electrics. I don't mean installation. Just planning. Even to a point of being able to establish what i need/consider the options.

    But it's just bewildering.

    Has anyone (that isnt an electrician) actually read Part P ? It just refers to other documents, rather than giving specific guidelines to adhere to.

    Here is an example....

    "Non-notifiable work
    2.25m
    NOTE: Socket-outlets should
    not be located within 3m of a
    bath tub or shower tray
    2.7 Regulation 12(6A) sets out electrical installation work that is notifiable. All other electrical
    installation work is not notifiable – namely additions and alterations to existing installations outside
    special locations, and replacements, repairs and maintenance anywhere.
    2.8 Installing fixed electrical equipment is within the scope of Part P, even if the final connection is by
    a standard 13A plug and socket, but is notifiable only if it involves work set out in regulation 12(6A).
    For example:
    a. installing a built-in cooker is not notifiable work unless a new cooker circuit is needed
    b. connecting an electric gate or garage door to an existing isolator switch is not notifiable work,
    but installing a new circ
    P1

    ONLINE VERSION
    Application of Part P
    2.9 Installing prefabricated, modular wiring (for example for kitchen lighting systems) linked by plug and
    socket connectors is also within the scope of Part P, but again is notifiable only if it involves work
    set out in regulation 12 (6A)"




    Great. Glad that's cleared that up.


    Here is a link....


    https://www.gov.uk/government/upload..._AD_P_2013.pdf
    If you think that's confusing and badly written - you want to try reading a regs book - over 400 pages of very badly disorganised regs and then you have to refer to an on site guide which is another 200 pages of things related to the regs book, plus part p plus the electricity at work act. Then just when you are starting to get the hang of it all they change things again, it's enough to drive you to drink.

    The book is so badly laid out for a reference book that when you take the regs exam you are allowed the regs book in there to find the answers, it's not about knowing the regs it's about knowing where to find them in the book.

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  24. #14
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Frimley Koi keeper's Avatar
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    Switch boxes are very fiddle and can be an issue if they go wrong as there are too many things crammed into an enclosed space and they get warm if not hot as there is no ventilation slots to disperse the heat as they are splash proof or water proof depending on their IP ratings.

    I am in the process of fitting IP68 switches feeding IP68 single sockets so if there is any water splashing around there won't be an issue.

    With splash or water proof sockets you can only use fairly standard 13 amp plugs in them or the lids won't shut and their IP rating will go out the window.

    You can get sockets now that have timers built into them that are IP44 or above so you don't have the issue of not shutting the lid.

    At the end of the day you get what you pay for hopefully so have a good look at what you think you currently need and what you think you may need in the future and go from there.

    You can always add a couple more as required in the future but just be careful of the maximum loading you are putting on the incoming cable feeding your filter room.

    Best to get someone qualified to carry out the work as they are or at least should be insured in case they mess something up.

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