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Thread: New Pond Build

  1. #41
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai Brandlin's Avatar
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    Ah!

    My apologies - with the DPM i couldn't see the slabs under the drain and I thought the problem you had was holding the drain in position on open ground.

    Your pressure calcs sound right. But the issue isn't with the static water pressure as a uniform load on the slab, its the slabs strength under torsion the hydro-static pressure from ground water will load the slab and walls asymetrically - especially with your run off - and if you get heave or settlement that is a bigger concern on clay, and the chance of cracking.

    Sorry - i'm not sounding very positve there am I? lol.

    Again - i'm not a civils engineer - but i have had to manage a number of them and some of it rubs off no matter how hard you scrub in the shower!

    Sounds like you have a pretty wet site with clay and runoff so the DPM makes sense... thanks for filling in the blanks! You're effectively building a tank with a tank then, it'll hold water long before you get the fibreglass in... I can see a lot of scaffolding and tarpaulin in your future to keep that dry through construction

    I have to say once again that is a cracking view and a wonderful location - well worth the extra effort and access difficulties i hope!

  2. #42
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai Scorchio's Avatar
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    I thought about the heave on the clay but as its clay from about a foot down and we have gone to 3 foot I cant see it moving. ( fingers crossed)
    The cottage has been there over a hundred years and theres no signs of movement.
    The large wall is about 15 foot high and I think that would have failed long before now if there was any movement.

    The run off is from the fields at the top of the lane, it runs down and past the cottage onto the parking area for the farm and barn behind. It comes down like a river if its heavy rain and seeps through the wall on the left.
    It then goes down our garden and into next field.

    Its not wet normally when it was dug out there nothing seeped into pond area which I thought there might be.

    We have had a bit on rain after the dig, before I got the DPM in and I could walk about in the pond with out it turning into a mess. The base was very sound with only one small area where I the ground felt soft.

    I will have to wait and see how it holds up when complete.

    I could always put a liner in rather than fibreglass

  3. #43
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai Brandlin's Avatar
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    Scorchio

    My apologies - I wasn't meaning to scare-monger. I am sure you have enough anxiety over your project without me adding to it on the basis of a couple of photographs. I don't think you are inherently doing anything that will be wrong or cause a problem - i was more musing out loud (in type) about the kinds of issues that 'could' exist. More a chat over a pint than any kind of advice!

    What most people dont realise is that the pressures on a concrete base are often greater from the surrounding ground water and hydrostatic pressure than they are from the predictable and usually uniform loading of the structure you build on it.

    If your hole wasn't filling with water from the run off then you most likely aren't on impermeable clay. And as you say if existing structures are present for a long period then clearly they will have settled and if there is no evidence of that then you should be good to go.

    Out of interest if you did think you had a problem with soft ground then you could explore the delightful world of "micropiling" with me. Because of my own pond's proposed location i am going to have to do some groundworks to prevent the whole caboodle from sliding down a 2.4 m near vertical bank into my neighbours back yard!

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  5. #44
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Gosai Designer1's Avatar
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    I went 6ft in the ground (all clay)

    Over engineered the base, blocks laid flat with a re bar reinforced ring beam, also tied into the base.

    Very small natural spring 1m from the edge of the pond - which made getting it dry to glass - good fun!

    Its fibreglassed - and has been sitting there two years...no problem.

    All i do consider now is one day when i want to get rid of it - it'll be a nightmare!!!!!! maybe i'll turn it into a nuclear bunker!

    Hard things ponds - theres no hard and fast rule to the construction as with building a property.
    So when designing it we all tend to over-engineer them so they don't fail, plus there always the added scaremongery - intentionally or unintentionally!

    What you have done looks fine (by me) the weight of the water will take care of the base.
    The walls is what i would consider carefully - as the forces on yours are a little unique i guess.

    Common sense plays a massive part in it all, and you look like you have that nailed so - carry on!

    Anxiety - yes, no one mentioned that at the start of this hobby - you will find you worry about anything & everything to do with the pond - and it doesn't get better, infact id go as far to say it gets worse! Its so relaxing - they said!!!!!!!

    Keep the photos coming -
    Its a hole in the ground where I throw my money!

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  7. #45
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai Scorchio's Avatar
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    Brandlin. I didn’t think you were scaremongering. I question everything and then double check. I was worried when I first started as the ground was very prone to water logging and always damp. We have only been here about 12 month. Even on summer it looked damp underfoot. When I removed the patio I discovered why. The owner has used gravel which was about 8 mm. He had laid it on membrane but not sloped it. The gravel was about 8 inches deep and had filled with silt. In effect he had created a bog. Once this was clear the membrane was on 12 inch of top soil then clay. The dug our area did not have any run off after it rained and I have put a proper drain next to wall that runs past the pond and into the garden. This will capture the run off which comes through the wall.
    i will take a look at micropiling as you suggest.

    Concrete due due in the morning. To late to turn back now.

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  9. #46
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai Scorchio's Avatar
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    Designer1. I am going to use dense concrete blocks on there sides for the walls. It’s about 3 foot deep in one side and about two foot at the other end due to slope of garden.

    I will I’ll post more pics when concrete is poured

    Thanks

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  11. #47
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    Good luck tomorrow with the pour
    Mate.

    Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

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  13. #48
    Moderator Rank = Supreme Champion Feline's Avatar
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    I think you should relax a bit Scorchio
    I am sure it will be absolutely fine.
    Stick with your fibreglass plans- there are much more potential issues with liners and you will get a much better end finish.
    If you need a marquee to cover it all with to dry out I have a now-unneeded 4x6m one in my garage

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  15. #49
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai Scorchio's Avatar
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    Cheers Fred

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  17. #50
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai Scorchio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feline View Post
    I think you should relax a bit Scorchio
    I am sure it will be absolutely fine.
    Stick with your fibreglass plans- there are much more potential issues with liners and you will get a much better end finish.
    If you need a marquee to cover it all with to dry out I have a now-unneeded 4x6m one in my garage
    I am relaxed
    The problem I have is every job I have had done on the cottage since we bought it by a tradesman. Has been crap and had to be done twice.
    The whole kitchen / diner had to be ripped out and the floor completely removed as the underfloor heating was bodged. I redid it all myself. New heating new floor new kitchen. Then had new conservatory. Had to throw the builders off site as they were cowboys. The base had to be knocked down and redone as it was built to the wrong size. Then had karndean flooring in conservatory and kitchen. Spent almost 12 months getting it ripped out and replaced. It started to gap after three weeks and was awful.
    Pond all being done by me. I know it will be right the first time.

    Mare you selling the marquee ? I need to cover the pond as you know for Fibreglassing

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  19. #51
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai Scorchio's Avatar
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    Concrete truck driver wouldn't get down the lane.
    The pump lads got down and both said he could get down but driver wouldn't.
    Driver said he was responsible for his truck and didn't want to risk it. Now I have to pay for concrete even though they have taken it back.

    Not impressed.

  20. #52
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai Scorchio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scorchio View Post
    Concrete truck driver wouldn't get down the lane.
    The pump lads got down and both said he could get down but driver wouldn't.
    Driver said he was responsible for his truck and didn't want to risk it. Now I have to pay for concrete even though they have taken it back.

    Not impressed.


    Pump pipe in and ready. Concrete driver refusing to come down Lane.



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  21. #53
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion andikoi's Avatar
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    if your on about the lane you can see behind,ive driven wagon and drags with 10ft wide portakabins down worse than that,he must be a softlad,yes hes responsible for his wagon,but also has a responsibility to you the customer,you have a contract with company to deliver,and no deliver no money,andi

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  23. #54
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai Brandlin's Avatar
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    To be fair, the driver IS responsible for the vehicle and I am sure that you would rather have this situation than say a stuck or overturned lorry full of set concrete on your property to deal with.

    As to the "pay for it anyway" approach of the company... Does it actually say that anywhere on an invoice, receipt, bill of sale or other documentation you have been given? Does it even say it on their website?

    If it doesn't then you aren't contractually obliged to pay them a penny.

    Even if it does then i would argue the toss. Especially as two of their own employees agree that access was available.

    Did you advise them when ordering that access may be tricky? If you did (and can prove it - email?) then you can also argue that they were advised of a risk and did nothing to satisfy themselves that they could overcome it.

    In anything like this trading standards can be your friend. It usually wont be worth the companies effort and costs to fight you for what (to them) amounts to a very small problem.

    I used to find the - "i will dedicate the next month of my life destroying your comapny's reputation on every social media outlet, newpaper and local radio show i can find. " is a good last resort. But its only worth the threat if A you have a genuine claim (ie you didnt accept a contract that makes you responsible for access and B you are prepared to do it.

    ...

    To add a non practical note I am sure you are gutted and angry you've put in a lot of work it seems on this project and had little go right first time. I feel for you. My advice would be a nice cup of tea and a long look at the view to be calm before you phone the company.

    Chin up....
    Last edited by Brandlin; 12-05-2018 at 10:37 AM.

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  25. #55
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai Scorchio's Avatar
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    I have to wait until Monday when they are ringing me back.
    They don't have pumps so the company I got the pump from arranged the concrete.
    I had explained about the access being an issue but we have had several skips delivered and a large calor oil tank delivered and off loaded with a hihab.
    The pump company said they use this company as they have good drivers. I have had a different company do a site visit who said they could get a micro mix down but they didn't pump. That's the reason I had to find a pumping company.
    The lads on the pump were adamant he could get down but driver wouldn't go further than the slight bend. The pump truck was 2 inch narrower but longer and that got down.
    The two properties behind have liquid gas delivered on a large wagon which is about the same size as concrete truck.
    I could use two pumps as a last resort. The pumping company are going to try a different company and have booked us in for next week.

  26. #56
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai Scorchio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andikoi View Post
    if your on about the lane you can see behind,ive driven wagon and drags with 10ft wide portakabins down worse than that,he must be a softlad,yes hes responsible for his wagon,but also has a responsibility to you the customer,you have a contract with company to deliver,and no deliver no money,andi
    Hi Andi

    Its not that lane. It's one to the cottage. He tried and then gave up. He had a tight point with about 6 inch clearance and stopped. He had three people to guide him but was adamant he couldn't get down.

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  28. #57
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai Brandlin's Avatar
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    ASSUMING when you say that "the pump guys arranged the concrete" that means they chose them, contracted them and will pay them whn you pay the pump company - THEN you have a contract with the pump company and then they have a contract with the concrete provider.

    In that instance you should NOT deal directly with the concrete company at all - they are not your supplier or your problem.

    In effect one of our contractors suppliers has failed them. Your only conversation is with YOUR contractor.

    Doesn't sound like you owe anyone a penny to me.

    HOWEVER, IF you contracted each of them separately and you are paying them both, then you have made yourself responsible for integrating their services so you MAY be able to argue with the concrete company because they havent delivered (assuming they didnt tell you anything about access) but you will be liable for the pup company as your other supplier stopped them doing their job for you.

    In that instance you're on a much stickier footing (footing - concrete pun intended )
    Last edited by Brandlin; 12-05-2018 at 11:26 AM.

  29. #58
    Moderator Rank = Supreme Champion Feline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scorchio View Post
    I am relaxed
    The problem I have is every job I have had done on the cottage since we bought it by a tradesman. Has been crap and had to be done twice.
    The whole kitchen / diner had to be ripped out and the floor completely removed as the underfloor heating was bodged. I redid it all myself. New heating new floor new kitchen. Then had new conservatory. Had to throw the builders off site as they were cowboys. The base had to be knocked down and redone as it was built to the wrong size. Then had karndean flooring in conservatory and kitchen. Spent almost 12 months getting it ripped out and replaced. It started to gap after three weeks and was awful.
    Pond all being done by me. I know it will be right the first time.

    Mare you selling the marquee ? I need to cover the pond as you know for Fibreglassing
    Yes, I was going to sell the marquee at some point, and am not wanting an awful lot for it. The problem is with all it's poles it is very large and heavy. Not sure I could package it up to post!

  30. #59
    Senior Member Rank = Gosai Scorchio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandlin View Post
    ASSUMING when you say that "the pump guys arranged the concrete" that means they chose them, contracted them and will pay them whn you pay the pump company - THEN you have a contract with the pump company and then they have a contract with the concrete provider.

    In that instance you should NOT deal directly with the concrete company at all - they are not your supplier or your problem.

    In effect one of our contractors suppliers has failed them. Your only conversation is with YOUR contractor.

    Doesn't sound like you owe anyone a penny to me.

    HOWEVER, IF you contracted each of them separately and you are paying them both, then you have made yourself responsible for integrating their services so you MAY be able to argue with the concrete company because they havent delivered (assuming they didnt tell you anything about access) but you will be liable for the pup company as your other supplier stopped them doing their job for you.

    In that instance you're on a much stickier footing (footing - concrete pun intended )
    Pump guys arranged the concrete. The concrete people rang me yesterday to pay. I told them over the phone that I had limited access. Pump lad said you don't owe us anything for today. He was more annoyed than I was. He rang the concrete company and told them the driver could get down.

    I was was told by the pump guys that the concrete company would ring me for payment. I paid on credit card just in case there was any problems.

    I will see what happens on Monday but I'm still stuck with a hole in the ground and no concrete.

    I could use a liner but I would have to replace bottom drains as there for concrete.
    Nothing ever goes right first time at this cottage.

  31. #60
    Moderator Rank = Supreme Champion Feline's Avatar
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    Bad news about the concrete delivery

 

 
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