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Thread: Ph and air
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15-03-2017, 04:48 PM #1
Ph and air
So after having a number of issues with ammonia and ph and fish flashing despite the scrapes being clear we have put the BD air on timers to come on 3 times a day for a couple of hours.
After less than 24hrs my ph has dropped from 8.2 to now 7.8 with a kh of 4. Fish have stopped flashing, ammonia coming down and the mucous on my chag has almost gone! I've been pulling my hair out with it all that something so simple can wreak havoc.
This got me thinking can too much air be a bad thing? Can it really affect the ph this much? My conclusion is yes it can!
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freddyboy Thanked / Liked this Post
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15-03-2017, 04:55 PM #2
Yes, the air drives off CO2 which is acidic, so it can have a marked effect on the pH. It's probably the one disadvantage of running high flow showers.
Since you have the bakki going you probably don't need the BD air on from an oxygen level POV, just to help the pond floor clear. I generally do what you're currently doing and have the BD air pump on a timer to come on for an hour or 2 twice a day, but also put it on constantly if doing any pond treatments or the water temp gets high and my oxygen test shows I might need it. An oxygen test kit is a handy thing to have just to make sure you are always well in the safe zone.2016 new 6000 gallon pond
https://www.koiforum.uk/pond-construc...ghlight=feline
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15-03-2017, 04:59 PM #3
Yeah that's what I'll do, hopefully I won't need to do any more treatment as I appear to have found the problem.
I have a dissolved O2 test reagent so will make a habit of checking it when I need to.
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freddyboy Thanked / Liked this Post
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15-03-2017, 07:24 PM #4
Wow, I'm glad you found the solution to the problem!
This is a very interesting development. I think I would be correct to say that many influencers on this and other forums have been promoting the idea that "you can never have too much aeration in your pond". I've read and studied to try to find where the concept that "more is always better" came from, but all my reading of scientific literature seems to point to optimal ranges for certain species and higher DO concentrations do not provide additional health benefits. Koi thrive in the 5-8 PPM range and the nitrifiers in our ponds do well on extremely low DO levels. Having concluded that my water easily stays at around 8 PPM without any intervention, eight months ago I turned off my large bottom drain aerators and now only aerate my MBBR.
I'm still learning and open to hearing other points of view and this post provides a very interesting data point.
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15-03-2017, 07:40 PM #5
I've heard similar claims about having lots of air. It is apparent though that it has been one of the main reasons they have been looking a bit off colour and sulking which had given parasites a chance to get out of control.
Now every time I go to the pond or they see me they are up at the top with open mouths wanting to be fed. Seeing as the ammonia is down I gave them a small handful of food which was gone in literally seconds. I will continue to monitor and do water changes as I expect to soon see a spike in nitrite.
I read that the bacteria that feeds on ammonia does best at a ph of 7.5-7.8 so hopefully now my water is in the good range it can start doing its job.
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freddyboy Thanked / Liked this Post
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15-03-2017, 09:36 PM #6
With new fresh ponds and filters I can see that there's less need for adding air but for a small heavily stocked mature pond like mine I'd suggest that adding as much air as possible is essential due to the huge volume being constantly consumed by large fish, mature filtration and biofilm.
I have seldom recorded much above 85% saturation even though I'm pumping in an additional 95LPM 24/7, my pH is also a stable and constant 7.6, these are just my personal observations.Alias PWNN - Steve
My favourite and recommended web site is......
http://www.mankysanke.co.uk/
http://www.freewebs.com/koikoi/
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voodoo_15_uk, freddyboy Thanked / Liked this Post
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16-03-2017, 06:10 AM #7
Laura if you remember i brought this up when i lost a couple of fish
I brought up air leeching cement. Anything i could thing of. And when i turned my air down from jacuzzi to a steady flow. My fish stopped flashing. And hurting them selfs. Also they flash if i turn it off. So i have a steady flow now
And no problens
I started a post on this problem of air problems laura.
Sent from my SM-G925F using TapatalkLast edited by freddyboy; 16-03-2017 at 06:26 AM.
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voodoo_15_uk Thanked / Liked this Post
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16-03-2017, 10:27 AM #8
I vaguely remember Fred. I still have air going in from the moving K1 and shower so there still plenty.
Some people can't get it into their thick heads that I've not turned it all off though.
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freddyboy Thanked / Liked this Post
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16-03-2017, 10:31 AM #9
Haha nice one. Glad you have solved it though. It did my box in for about 3 months
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voodoo_15_uk Thanked / Liked this Post
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16-03-2017, 10:33 AM #10
Yes it's been very frustrating. hopefully things will keep getting better now.
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freddyboy Thanked / Liked this Post
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16-03-2017, 05:57 PM #11
When you are at 85% saturation what is your DO concentration?
The Fundamentals of Environmental Measurements site is a fabulous resource. It says:
"Carp are hardier, and while they can enjoy dissolved oxygen levels above 5 mg/L, they easily tolerate levels below 2 mg/L and can survive at levels below 1 mg/L ²⁶."
I've never measured my DO concentration at lower than 7 or 7.5 mg/L in my pond. I don't need anything beyond my MBBR to maintain this level. I would be very interested to know what levels other people are experiencing in their ponds that motivate them to claim that "you can never have too much aeration in a pond".Last edited by MarloLee; 16-03-2017 at 07:26 PM.
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16-03-2017, 07:13 PM #12
Just checked my DO....
But it's also flashing saying out of range, does this mean it's higher?
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16-03-2017, 09:06 PM #13
Yeah I would have thought 10 was the upper end of the range on that.
I aim to keep my DO above 6. Of course anyone with sturgeon or sterlets needs to be very careful to keep it well above 6.2016 new 6000 gallon pond
https://www.koiforum.uk/pond-construc...ghlight=feline
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freddyboy, voodoo_15_uk Thanked / Liked this Post
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16-05-2017, 10:27 AM #14
Interesting thread. Iv always thought that you can't have to much oxygen, but I'm know expert. Doesn't the air from BD also help with pulling water through the BD?
Laura, how do you get on with the Hanna, Iv been looking at them and I think it might be one of my next purchases. Not told the wife yet though
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freddyboy Thanked / Liked this Post
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16-05-2017, 12:02 PM #15
If you remember laura i did a thread on this about 3 months ago. My fish where flashing. As soon as i turned it from Jacuzzi to trickle they where ok. I dont think people believed me. That air could do this. Glad you have worked it out. I understand it though everyone has air going into ponds. So it is the last thing you think off.
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voodoo_15_uk, Trace Thanked / Liked this Post
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16-05-2017, 01:32 PM #16
I've come to a compromise with the BD air. I have 1 running 24/7 near the shower and the other on 3 times a day for an hour. This gives me a higher but stable ph of between 8.0 to 8.4 depending on time of day.
I have to say the koi seem much happier with this system.
I love the Hanna, so much so I got more reagents and cuvettes. Once you done a few tests you get to know what the process is and I find it so easy to test the water. Still use the nt labs kh/gh drop test kit though.
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freddyboy Thanked / Liked this Post
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16-05-2017, 02:19 PM #17
glad you sorted laura,im thinking of building another pond and was asking on another site about pond depth as im thinking 18ft x 10ft by 4.5ft,i wanted to know people views on depth and a friend put this up for me,makes good reading,there is a part on O2 saturation which i thought interesting,andi Growing Jumbo Koi - Theory and Practice - Interview with Mike Snaden (Part 1) » Nishikigoi.Life
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16-05-2017, 02:27 PM #18
Ours is 6'7" deep. It does have a couple of shelves at 2' which the koi like to rest on from time to time.
I'll take a look at that article
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freddyboy Thanked / Liked this Post
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16-05-2017, 03:36 PM #19
Very interesting thread ... I also previously questioned too much aeration as all my water goes through an air lift return so adds a lot to the already 24/7 BD aeration.
I noticed a definite difference in "Lunking" behaviour with different amount's of aeration.
But when I turned it down ended up with an outbreak of Phormidium (more commonly known as "black slimey algae") ... which I only cured after raising the DO level dramatically for a period of time (along with more light and water movement) ... I now have a good balance working but it seems here there is a fine line between too much (fish behave as if irritated) and too little (when Phormidium can get a hold and it's nasty stuff).
Would have been interesting to see what your DO actually was as it's offscale ...
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freddyboy Thanked / Liked this Post
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16-05-2017, 04:15 PM #20
Yeah the DO on my hanna only goes up to 10. Anything higher and it still reads 10, but at least I know there plenty.
They do still lunk a bit when the 12 noon air comes on and a little bit of flashing but they still want food if they see me.
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freddyboy Thanked / Liked this Post
Aquaforte Dm vario 20000 pumps
Still for sale. Postage available for cost Sent from my SM-S901B using Tapatalk