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  1. #1

    Damaged Koi just getting worse

    Hi, we have a 3000 gallon pond that's been running for almost 20 years now. About 8 years ago, after having a problem, we got a quarantine tank to keep "just in case"! Came back from holiday at the beginning of Aug 2019 and noticed our 18 inch kohaku had some damage on its left side which could only have come from a knock on the bottom drain cover as the pond was purposely built without protruding features that could potentially cause damage. The damage started getting worse so the koi was moved to the quarantine tank and heated from 18 deg C (natural water temp at that time) to 22 deg C which it still is held at today. Introduced salt too, increased over the next 10 days to read 0.65 (reading 0.69 today). Before the koi was put into the quarantine tank, we knocked it out, injected it with Amikin, pulled out about 6 dead scales, cleaned the wound and sealed it etc. Did the same again (apart from removing scales) 3 days later but then noticed a couple of days after that more scales were raised adjacent to the wound site. Just left it alone to observe and to hope the raised scales would subside. Unfortunately they didn't, so a couple or so weeks later we decided to remove the fish again, knock it out and perform injection and cleaning procedure etc as above. This time, we had to remove about 20 scales but was confident we'd removed all the infected ones. Come back from holiday and found the same happening again. Raised scales adjacent to the site where the scales were removed from (incidentally, this previous area still looks red and angry) but the redness has also now migrated to the base of the dorsal fin.
    PH is 6, ammonia zero. The tank doesn't look spotless as it doesn't have a UV but it has had water changes.
    I now feel helpless and at a loss as to what to do. I'm assuming this fish is being attacked by a bacterial infection but am unsure how to treat. Don't have a microscope. In the past we have treated the main pond with potassium permanganate but I'm just really wary about using chemicals or the wrong chemical.
    Any advice would be much appreciated as I fear what started as an innocuous little bit of damage is going to end up sadly as a dead koi which I really don't want to happen.
    I have a photo but I'm new to this site so can't just see how to upload it.
    Thanks, Fran



  2. #2
    The fish looks like this today. Apologies the shot isn't clearer but you can see the red area where the scales have been removed, the now red base of the dorsal fin and you can just see the raised scales adjacent to the reddened area towards the tail end.
    Hope you can advise :-) thanks

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  3. #3
    Junior Member Rank = Fry jimsharples's Avatar
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    Water seems very acidic, sure someone with more knowledge will be along shortly. In the meantime here's a link to Mankys page on pH "Ammonia" Ammonia

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  5. #4
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion john1's Avatar
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    Hi Fran, Your ph is low what is your kh?
    Very important if zero you need to add sodium bicarbonate.

    You seem to be treating ok but you have removed a lot of scales by the sound of it,a dead scale is rough to the touch.
    Not an expert on treatments but maybe some chloramine T to kill bad bacteria.
    You need to check your kh now,and check from your tap.
    John

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  7. #5
    Thank you very much for your reply. Will check the KH later and then I'm going to do a water change and will adjust the salt and KH after that.
    The scales were lifted. I can't say all were rough to the touch but they were raggy and when gently pulled, they literally "fell out" with no resistance. I don't pull if there is resistance.
    Will look into Chloramine T also.
    Thanks, Fran

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  9. #6
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion john1's Avatar
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    No problem Fran, but check your tap water kh if low then you know where you stand,not saying it is that but worth eliminating.

    If low get back and I will find the dose rate,its on Mankys site.
    John

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  11. #7
    Hi. 3 Points here. Please don't take offence as i only raise these points to hopefully help you save the koi.

    1) The water in the tank looks filthy. What is the stuff between the ridges of the pipe? You mention you have no uv but that looks like puddle water as opposed to algae. Maybe i've missed something and it's a water treatment but a sick koi needs good water conditions (filtered, aerated, dechlorinated) or it's less likely to get better. Consider getting yourself a paddling pool or better still, a frame pool to use in such situations.

    2) What is your KH? A pH of 6 is not a good sign. I read somewhere that acidosis can cause scales to fall out.
    Do you understand the relationship of pH and KH? Sorry if i sound patronising but better for you to dislike me for asking, than me not to ask and you not know (if that makes sense)

    I am not an expert. Far from it. But i'd rather be told something i already know, than not be told something i don't.

    The paragraphs in italics are taken from Hanover Koi Farm's website. There is a link at the bottom. The whole site is well worth a read. It's not the first time i have put up a link to their site and i make no apology for doing so because it's very good. I must mention that i have no affiliation to them. Nor do i know them.

    There are many things that can cause your pH to fluctuate, and most of them will cause the pH to drop. For this reason, it is vital to constantly monitor the pond’s pH when you are not maintaining proper kH. Now. Now, you might be wondering what you can do about all of this if you do see diurnal fluctuations in your pH of more than .3 (three tenths).

    That brings us to kH, also known as alkalinity, total alkalinity, and/or temporary hardness. Call it what you want, but in ponding circles it is usually referred to simply as kH, and is, in my opinion, the most important parameter to monitor in an outdoor pond. kH is the buffering capacity of your water, and is usually measured in dKH (degrees of hardness) or PPM (parts per million). As acids are introduced by the varying methods described above, it is the kH (carbonates) which instantly neutralize them and keep them from making your water more acidic and causing pH changes or crashes. Without the proper kH levels to counteract these pH secretions, your pond is a ticking time bomb, and all of your fish are at risk.

    These kH is used up each time these acids are neutralized, and it is for this reason that we must monitor and thus adjust its level as needed. We do this by adding carbonates to the pond, and baking soda is what is primarily used to achieve this. We will discuss kH adjustment later in this article. To help you better understand I offer a simple example.

    Think of it like this: Pretend the kH level of your pond is a "Tums" antacid sitting there. When acids are excreted (by whatever) into the sytem, the "Tums"/kH instantly neutralize them. Over time, the kH can get used up each time it does this, just as a "Tums" might. If you eat something spicy, and it gives you indigestion, you might take an antacid to get rid of the excess acid in your stomach. If you eat something else spicy after that you will may likely have to take more antacid because the first dose of antacid got used in absorbing the initial acid content up. This is exactly how the kH buffers your water, and you have to understand that there is a minimum level needed to accomplish this. Too small or not enough “Tums” and you will still have indigestion. As stated, the kH will get used up over time and need to be replenished. Therefore, the kH has to be monitored on a regular basis, and you will have to most likely replenish it at various times throughout the year.

    Acceptable kH levels for our ponds would be between 100 and 200 PPM depending on many factors as discussed above. If you have lots of pond plants, algae growth, green water, heavy fish loads, and high feed rates, to name a few, then you should try to maintain the higher end numbers between 150 PPM to 200 PPM. In the average pond maintaining a kH of 150 ppm is usually more than sufficient. With this level of carbonate hardness, you should not see very much change in the daily pH values, and you will be protected from the dreaded "pH crash"! It is possible, however, that in times of extreme plant growth in your pond (algae blooms as well) that the pH can fluctuate more than the three tenths, but as long as you maintain the proper kH levels, the fish will be fine.




    That isn't even a third of the info from the site i lifted it from. Do check their site out. Link below....



    Taken from here.... https://hanoverkoifarms.com/the-science-of-water/ It's worth reading the whole page/site because there is a lot of good info.



    3) What made you go with Amikin as opposed to Baytril?

    I'm not suggesting you shouldn't have. Just, I am curious because amikin is 5 times more expensive than baytril.

    The spreading scale loss sounds like something i encountered last year. If it is that, then you're gonna wish it was acidosis instead.

    IF it is the same thing and you really want to save the fish, contact your vet and ask them to do a bacteria culture and sensitivity test. Then you will know exactly which antibiotic has the best chance of success.

    I lost my favourite koi to something which sounds like this. I didn't get a C&S test done and wish i had. I spent roughly £400 on antibiotics (baytril, amoxicillin, amikin) salt, CT and various other things but i lost her anyway.



    None of the antibiotics above worked. But of the 3 the amoxicillin appeared to help somewhat.

    If in doubt, consider contacting Lincs Fish Health or Duncan.


    Please don't take offence at the above. And please don't take anything i have told you as gospel. All i have to go on is your picture and description.

    The only thing i can be 100% certain of is....your pH is too low.


    All the best.


    Everyone else - Sorry for the massive post.

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  13. #8
    Did you manage to get the sick koi into some clean water?

    And get the KH tested? And pH raised?

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  15. #9
    A fish I had that got dropsy looked like that, though she was bloated like a pine cone. Died within a few days, nothing i could do

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