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  1. #1

    Koi laying flat on side on the bottom

    Hi.

    Im a new koi keeper and have a 22’000ltr pond it’s 6ft deep and 5.5m kind and 2.3m wide.

    Ive has water in about 8weeks and put 6 small fish in 2/3 weeks ago. 6inch each.

    For it the last few days two of my showa have started laying flat on the bottom of the pond. When approached they swim off and they will feed too. Also some times they will be swimming and then it’s like someone has stunned the water and the tilt over and drift then swim again.

    I have two airated bottom drains and the other 4 fish are fine. I’ve also done water tests and all readings are good except slightly hard water.

    Any advice would be appreciated

    danny



  2. #2
    Moderator Rank = Supreme Champion Feline's Avatar
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    Hi Danny.
    What are your actual water readings?
    Do you know the pH and hardness of the place these fish came from? Where were these fish bred?
    Hardness shock can cause symptoms like those, but there is also the possibility of a water quality issue or a parasite problem.

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  4. #3
    Hi,

    All readings bar hardness were spot on. My hardness was 5drops over the recommended. I spoke with the shop and they relayed that the temps match and that hardness shouldn’t be a problem but I kind of don’t believe it otherwise why would I need to test it.

    Is is there anything I can do to help the hardness apart from a water change?

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    Moderator Rank = Supreme Champion Feline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy View Post
    Hi,

    All readings bar hardness were spot on. My hardness was 5drops over the recommended. I spoke with the shop and they relayed that the temps match and that hardness shouldn’t be a problem but I kind of don’t believe it otherwise why would I need to test it.

    Is is there anything I can do to help the hardness apart from a water change?
    You can salt the pond to remove osmotic stress on the fish (initially to 0.3%, and if no improvement increase to 0.6% over a couple of days- you need a salt meter to check the level).

    But personally I would do some scrapes first to rule out a parasite issue. Once you've salted the pond it takes forever to remove it by dilution, and there are one or two treatments that you shouldn't use with salt, so you need to be sure really. You must not use salt if you have Sterlets by the way.

  6. #5
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Adult Champion anne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy View Post
    Hi.




    Also some times they will be swimming and then it’s like someone has stunned the water and the tilt over and drift then swim again.



    danny
    Hi Danny, are all your electrics to the pond ok ? nothing getting damp with all the rain we have had.
    hope you get it sorted .

  7. #6
    I’ve read about salting but not sure if it’s for me at this infant stage in my cycle of keeping koi. I spoke with another local breeding shop and they seem to be along the lines you touched upon for hard water. Although they think temp could be a factor also.


    Is is there a particular parasites you think could cause this issue.

    No sterlets at at the moment just the 6 little fish mentioned already. I didn’t want to rush it.

    All electrics are currently dry dry and safe touch wood.

    Thank you you as always

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    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion voodoo_15_uk's Avatar
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    There are many parasites which can show the same symptoms which is why a skin scrape is best.

    As you are new to koi the best investment you can make is to buy a microscope such as the apex practitioner and also slides and cover slips.

    There are lots of YouTube videos on how to take scrapes.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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  10. #8
    FYI, you test for hardness as it's (kinda) used up by your filter bacteria. no hardness, no bacteria & dead fish.

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    Moderator Rank = Supreme Champion Feline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mitsufishi View Post
    FYI, you test for hardness as it's (kinda) used up by your filter bacteria. no hardness, no bacteria & dead fish.
    We're not talking about carbonate hardness (KH) really here- general hardness can be the problem.

  12. #10
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Mature Champion pip895's Avatar
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    Some on here don't hold with the go out and by a microscope mantra mine gathers dust in a corner. It sounds to me more like some trauma during introduction/acclimatisation. Did.you dechlorinate the water or just rely on gassing off? Could anything have leached into the water? Have you seen any trace of ammonia and nitrite yet to see that your biological filtration is kicking in? What filtration are you using and how much are you feeding? Do you/will you be heating your pond?

    In the past I have had issues with young koi introduced in the Autum - they have often been grown fast in heated ponds, transported long distances then transferred to our often unheated ponds with variable water conditions - it's a recipe for trouble sadly.

    Salt might be a good move even without the meter just try and measure/ estimate the water changes after introduction to calculate dilution over time.
    Posting your our actual water readings might help people on here help you better even if it is a row of zeros also worth mentioning the test kit used.
    6000g in ground koi pond
    +3000g lily/Anoxic pond attached
    29 koi (40 to 65cm)
    Bottom drain, Mid water & Skimmer to Drum
    JBR boichamber->Blue eco 500 pump ->below surface return.
    Blue Eco 240 -> Large MB -> Waterfall -> Planted Anoxic pond (25 baskets)

  13. #11
    Junior Member Rank = Fry GingerJase's Avatar
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    Hi Everyone,

    New to the forum...so sorry if 'gatecrashing' this post....I've had a similar issue only my pond is 3 years old. I have a Kings Lynne Koi multi chamber filter, 7000K litres rectangular boxed lined with bottom drain. Currently stocked with 12 koi largest being 18 inches.
    So I've lost one fish a week ago and another one on its it way out I am sure both with what appears to be swim bladder issues....never encountered this before.
    Tested with Kockney Koi liquid test kit for Ammonia Nitrite Nitrate and PH...all of which are within normal the colour ranges.
    I have aeration both in the pond and in the bacterial chamber of the filter.

    Is there anything I can do for the koi on its way out which is current breathing but floating on it side/upside down (....have watched videos on injecting/reducing the swim bladder (aspirating).

    Could this be a bacterial issue and if so any ideas on the possible cause?
    I was going to treat the pond with NT Labs Acriflavine....thoughts please anyone?

    Thanks in advance

    Jase
    Last edited by GingerJase; 16-10-2018 at 10:02 AM.

  14. #12
    Evening all, so I had a fried who had a microscope so we done a scrape tonight and we couldn’t find any signs of parasites.

    Water temp after all this rain is at 15deg. All ammonia and nitrate levels are reading correctly. When I filled it 5/6 weeks before putting any fish in I had treated it and also put a filter bomb in my system. I have a Filtreau drum filter system with boa bed.

    I can can only think it could be general hardness now and leaves nothing but salting and a water change at 25% unless anyone else has any ideas.

    Thank you to everyone for the advice so far

  15. #13
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    hi Fuzzy,

    How did you get on with your Koi in the end?


    I didn't realise this was a 2 Month old thread, I must have missed it so apologies for only replying now. Nonetheless, below is what I typed prior to realising your problem is likely resolved by now:


    What doesn't quite add up for me is the fact you've only had fish in there for 3 Weeks, yet your water parameters are all perfect.

    After just 3 weeks at least one of the parameters should be out somewhere, either that or the pond hasn't yet started to mature.

    Could you post the actual numbers including hardness?

    My own pond parameters looked good at 3 Weeks, but then went downhill rapidly and took 7 Months to recover. It was only after the 7 Months that I fully realised what I thought were good parameters at 3 Weeks were an indication that the pond hadn't started to mature. The main parameters that gave this away were KH and GH! They were very high - exactly what you are suspecting with yours. Both GH and KH are a lot lower now and still coming down, but with KH at 9dH and GH at 13dH mine are still much higher than most.

    If you suspect water hardness is the culprit there is an easy way to find the answer - Speak to the Dealer you bought them off and ask what their KH and GH is and ask how long they had the fish before selling to you.

    I have seen freshly imported Japanese Koi on their sides exactly like yours when they were first added to hard water, the effects were quite immediate, but they recover within a day or 2.

    My experience with Koi is limited, though my experience with Goldfish is vast, and I personally don't think hard water is the sole culprit here based solely on reading your posts.
    Last edited by RS2OOO; 20-12-2018 at 01:02 AM.

 

 

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