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Thread: Advice please

  1. #1

    Advice please

    Hi, I guess this may not be possible to diagnose from a picture but can anyone suggest what the cause of this might be and how best to treat? The fish is acting normally, active and feeding keenly.
    Thanks
    David
    IMG_2125.jpgIMG_2126.jpg



  2. #2
    Junior Member Rank = Tosai derek56's Avatar
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    looks like a ulcer m8

  3. #3
    Thanks Derek.
    So I guess the options are treatment or leave for the moment and monitor.
    Based on what's visible on the picture, what would people recommend?

  4. #4
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Andy1671's Avatar
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    I would sedate the koi.....
    Wipe the area dry with kitchen tissue
    Clean the area with Hydrogen Peroxide
    Wipe the area dry with kitchen tissue
    Treat with Ulcer Swab then Meurochrome, seal the wound with Orasive powder and Propolis
    hope this helps
    5000 Gallon Fibreglassed Pond With 54" x 27" Infinity Window
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  6. #5
    Thanks Andy. I don't currently have any of this kit, my bad. Is the ntlabs paramedic kit a sensible purchase or would I be better off with a shopping list of separate products?
    thanks
    David

  7. #6
    Hi all, I'd appreciate some more advise please.
    I have a 14" Showa with some signs of dropsy - swollen body (not head) and slightly raised scales.
    Upon further investigation it has a real problem around one gill, looks like maybe bacteria have eaten away at the flesh a bit. Also there is significant redness around that area and also the underside.
    It was moving around in the pond quite normally, perhaps a bit slow and also eating.
    See photos attached. From research so far, I am not hopeful. Time will tell...

    This evening I have quarantined the fish in a tank with 0.3% salt and stated dose of Acriflavine (Kockney Koi Pond Medic at 10ml per 750 litres).
    The tank is unfortunately only 90cms long x 30cms wide x 60cms tall with 50litres. It has an airstone with Hiblow HP20 pump.
    I do not have any filter system attached to the tank.

    The fish has been in the tank for just over 1hr now and quiet but moving around a little, a few splashes.

    Some help needed please, as follows:
    1) Is my approach so far correct?
    2) What duration of time shall I keep the fish in QT?
    3) What water change routine is recommended?
    4) Will a usual Ammonia test (NTLabs) work accurately with salt/acriflavine?
    5) Should I feed the fish?
    6) Should I increase the dosage of Acriflavine? A "dip" dose is stated at 10ml per 100litres for max 1hour - is that a better alternative?
    7) Is the tank I an using dangerously small or will it suffice for this emergency situation? I have a larger container, an old multibay filter, that I could use, but it has some vertical sections at the bottom which I fear may cause injury
    8) The water surface is almost entirely covered in bubbles now which it was not the case in the hour or so before the fish was in there, is this normal/ok or an indication the water quality is already deteriorating?

    image2.jpgimage3.jpg


    Answers to standard questions about the pond itself:
    1) All water parameter readings (current readings): Ammonia between zero and 0.2, Nitrite zero, Nitrate zero, ph 8.0
    2) give details of your set up ,"gallonage" filter system " pumps make and model", approx 25 - 30k litres, 30000lph vario pump
    3) length of time the pond has been running - 5 years since I started it up again and added the koi, very mature pond
    4),Also include info on any new fish , no new fish
    5) stocking rates (number of fish and sizes " aprox") 15koi of sizes 10-20", many small tench
    6) any recent changes to any of the above)
    7) include tap water readings
    8 ) try to include pictures if the problem is koi related ie: sore's scuff's ect .


    Many thanks in advance for your help.

    FYI, last year Andy1671 gave me advice on how to treat an ulcer which I followed and the fish made a full recovery. Thank you Andy!

    Regards
    David

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  9. #7
    Some additional information, having now read "Pauls pond" post,

    I think the eyes are bulging, struggling to get a decent photo though.
    I don't have a pond/tank heater, although I have put the QT in a summerhouse that I can heat a bit to avoid temps dropping overnight. If I heat too much though it will cause a temp fluctuation problem when doing water changes.
    I do have a microscope if needed, but decided not to stress the fish more than necessary so haven't done a scrape.

    Interestingly, my scenario is very similar to Paul's; "never wanted a pond bought a house with one and now can’t live without it"
    My pond is also a bit of a wildlife pond with fish in it: a load of frogs spawning in it, visits from ducks, heron too sometimes. It doesn't have a bottom drain and I have really tried to get on top of the cleaning with a vacuum, but not easy due to size and depth of pond and a big overhanging willow tree dropping stuff daily. In terms of root cause, I probably have unsettled some nasties from the bottom of the pond.
    Today I bought some NTLabs Pond Anti Paraside and Fungus to treat the pond after seeing one koi flicking last weekend, but wondering if something to target bacteria rather than parasites is priority.
    IMG_0084.jpg


    Thanks
    David

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  11. #8
    Member Rank = Nisai Pauls pond's Avatar
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    Hoping you get him sortedAdvice please


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  13. #9
    Thanks Paul.
    Update: I think the eyes are not actually bulging, but I can now see what I think is a fungal growth on the gill which was not there yesterday.

    On the advice of a local dealer (for treating Dropsy symptoms), I have 1% salt and 0.013% Acriflavine (10x normal dose of 10ml per 750 litres), and am not feeding.
    I have a v small heater that has lifted water temp to 17. The fish is moving around normally.

    My main concern is how long I can hold the fish in such a small tank, it's already been in there 20hours.
    I know it will be causing stress but it's the only way I can give treatment.
    Should I consider something topical and release back to pond?
    Is anyone able to offer any help or advice please?

    IMG_0095.jpgIMG_0091.jpg

  14. #10
    Hi, I’ve uploaded a video which shows what I think is fungus much more clearly. And it seems to be getting worse despite the high dosage of Acriflavine.
    Anyone able to offer some advice please?
    Or any ideas, observations etc
    If more info needed I can certainly provide it.

    As said would really appreciate some help please!!



    Thanks
    David

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  16. #11
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    Hi mate. For one in my opinion your treating blind.
    What i mean by this is. Your treating the fish not knowing what is wrong with it.

    I know you don t want to stress the fish.
    It looks like it is sttessed already.
    So in my opinion. Get a a scrape done.
    And while your at it. Net a few more of the fish. That one and at least two more.
    And see what is under the microscope.
    Then go from there. You need to know what is causing the problem.
    And then deal with it. With the correct treatment in the pond.

    Also my pond is mature. Water perimeters spot on Yet i have found skin flukes. And now i am dealing with it. After scraping 3x fish.

    Also the container. Are you using pond water. Or tap water. For water changes. If tap water you need to keep dechorination of the water

    If pond water you could be adding
    Illness and infection out of the pond
    Into container

    When my fish have been ill. I have a 450 gallon qt tank with a fish tank heater.
    I have the tempreture set at 23/24c
    I add salt at start to 0.3. For 4 days
    Then up the salt to 0.6.
    Obviously if i need to treat for a certain parasite with out salt. I don t add salt.
    Because some treatments you can t add salt. Does more harm then good.
    Hope this helps
    Fred



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  18. #12
    Member Rank = Nisai Pauls pond's Avatar
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    I know very little but the acriflavin I have used in much smaller dosages seems to have taken 48 hours before any improvement pine coming has calmed but it took time


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  20. #13
    Thanks for the advice Fred and Paul.
    I have scraped 1 fish from the pond (will do a second later) and also the sick fish. I have found nothing on either. I am a total beginner at this; I know my way around the microscope ok, just I have not done a scrape before. I certainly had some slime coat on the slide and looked thoroughly at all magnifications. I didn’t see anything that resembled any parasite.
    It may be an injury that the koi suffered or if not something really seems to be attacking the flesh. See pic. There is redness on the body and some raised scales. It seems less pine cone than initially.

    I was using pond water in the tank but I will switch this to tap via the declor.
    Based on the latest picture, what should my next steps be?
    I did apply some propolis to the raw flesh, being careful to avoid any getting on the gill. I hope that was the right thing to do.
    Would really appreciate more help with this please.

    Thanks all,
    David

    6DB1BD94-9094-4DFA-94F0-CCFB1A759EEF.jpg

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  22. #14
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pauls pond View Post
    I know very little but the acriflavin I have used in much smaller dosages seems to have taken 48 hours before any improvement pine coming has calmed but it took time


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    Nice one. At least your winning by the sounds of things.
    Good to hear the coning is coming down
    But what i am trying to explain is
    What caused it in the first place.
    That needs to be sorted in the pond.
    And got rid of.
    Only way to find that out is water testing and scrapes.

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  24. #15
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Lucas View Post
    Thanks for the advice Fred and Paul.
    I have scraped 1 fish from the pond (will do a second later) and also the sick fish. I have found nothing on either. I am a total beginner at this; I know my way around the microscope ok, just I have not done a scrape before. I certainly had some slime coat on the slide and looked thoroughly at all magnifications. I didn’t see anything that resembled any parasite.
    It may be an injury that the koi suffered or if not something really seems to be attacking the flesh. See pic. There is redness on the body and some raised scales. It seems less pine cone than initially.

    I was using pond water in the tank but I will switch this to tap via the declor.
    Based on the latest picture, what should my next steps be?
    I did apply some propolis to the raw flesh, being careful to avoid any getting on the gill. I hope that was the right thing to do.
    Would really appreciate more help with this please.

    Thanks all,
    David

    6DB1BD94-9094-4DFA-94F0-CCFB1A759EEF.jpg
    Hi david. I had two fish similar. Last year. ( there both fine now )
    With mouth rot. Hard to treat.
    I put the fish to sleep. Using Masuizai Koi Sedate. Laid on a wet towel. Then i mixed PP paste. An egg cup. Some pond water. And 1/2 teaspoon of PP
    Using cotton bud. Then applied the pp onto the wound inside mouth and outside onto the wounded area.

    Left that for a couple of minutes
    Then topical sealed in
    By using on top of pp
    Grams of Orahesive sealer powder
    Then Top Coat Sealer
    My QT was set at 23c tempreture
    With 0.3 salt. Then upped to 0.6
    Salt hope this helps.
    Others may do it different.
    But that worked for me.
    Fred

    I bought one of these for topical treating .
    https://kusuri.co.uk/kusuri-products...treatment-kit/





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  26. #16
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freddyboy View Post
    Hi david. I had two fish similar. Last year. ( there both fine now )
    With mouth rot. Hard to treat.
    I put the fish to sleep. Using Masuizai Koi Sedate. Laid on a wet towel. Then i mixed PP paste. An egg cup. Some pond water. And 1/2 teaspoon of PP
    Using cotton bud. Then applied the pp onto the wound inside mouth and outside onto the wounded area.

    Left that for a couple of minutes
    Then topical sealed in
    By using on top of pp
    Grams of Orahesive sealer powder
    Then Top Coat Sealer
    My QT was set at 23c tempreture
    With 0.3 salt. Then upped to 0.6
    Salt hope this helps.
    Others may do it different.
    But that worked for me.
    Fred

    I bought one of these for topical treating .
    https://kusuri.co.uk/kusuri-products...treatment-kit/





    Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
    Forgot to add. I did that treatment 3
    Times. Weekly.

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  28. #17
    Thanks Fred. I have all the ulcer treatment products here ready to use. My concern was whether I can use them so close to the gill. Some products state that you should avoid contact with the gills and eyes.
    Any thoughts on this?

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  30. #18
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion freddyboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Lucas View Post
    Thanks Fred. I have all the ulcer treatment products here ready to use. My concern was whether I can use them so close to the gill. Some products state that you should avoid contact with the gills and eyes.
    Any thoughts on this?
    Your right . And the scales. When using the cotton bud just make sure its not running all over the place.
    When laid down on a towel. The drips should drip down. Not upwards to the gills and eyes.

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  32. #19
    Thanks. The wound/ulcer seems to be going into the gill, ie underneath the flap. That is also where the fungus is coming from as well.
    I was expecting the salt and Acriflavine to stop the fungus but it doesn’t seem to be making any difference so far. Since I was already at 1% salt I have maintained that.
    I guess I just treat as much of the ulcer as possible without risking anything going into gill.

    Since it will be a while that the ulcer needs close treatment I have a big problem with the QT setup. The tank is way too small for the fish and probably causing it a lot of stress. It’s already been in there for over 60hours. I have 3 options:
    1) keep it where it (75litres, 90x30x28) which I can heat a little with a v small aquarium heater that lifts by about 3 or 4 degrees to 18)
    2) put it in a slightly larger tank (200 litres, 100x50x40) which I can’t heat so will be 14/15degrees.
    3) treat ulcer once and release back to pond, downsides being
    - will be difficult and stressful to catch the fish for repeated treatments
    - salt/Acriflavine treatment will stop
    - temperature will be much lower (currently 11degrees)

    Which option is least worse??

    Thanks
    David

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  34. #20
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Hi Fred,

    Did that kit contain everything you needed?

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