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  1. #1
    Junior Member Rank = Fry auntiemandy's Avatar
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    Sudden death and helicopter!

    Hi, new to forum, not an expert by any means but inherited 40,000 litre pond with 30 mature fish - mostly koi.

    Few problems and rather a strange question... but.....

    We have a helicopter keeps landing in a field about 60-70 metres away from the pond, the vibrations can clearly be felt and video shows the fish moving away from the noise to a corner furthest away from helicopter. Lost a couple of 'apparently healthy' koi and another died this morning - seems to happen within a week of helicopter visits.

    Could this contribute to losing/stressing fish?
    What would be signs of stress we need to look for?
    Any suggestions as to how we could lessen the stress?

    Thanks in advance,

    Mandy



  2. #2
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Andy1671's Avatar
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    Hello and welcome.
    The noise and vibrations wont be good for the koi.
    Where abouts are you and maybe someone near by could pop in a given you another opinion
    5000 Gallon Fibreglassed Pond With 54" x 27" Infinity Window
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  4. #3
    Without witnessing the behavior I can only say from what you describe that there is a strong possibility that the koi are being stressed by the sudden vibrations from the helicopter. Fish have acute "hearing" due to the lateral line response to vibration and any unusual noise that causes strong, unexpected vibrations will cause them to attempt to swim away to what they would consider to be a safer place that is free of the vibrations.

    If they cannot get away from what they perceive is a dangerous place because they are confined in a pond they will be stressed in in same way that you or I would be if we were in danger but were unable to get away to safety.

    Other pets such as cats and dogs are often seen to be badly affected by the sudden noise of fireworks. We refer to the sudden startle effect as the "fight or flight" reaction and it affects fish in a similar way to what we or our furry pets would experience if exposed to something we, or they, consider to be danger.

    Long term stress will increase the heart and respiration rate and reduce a fish's ability to function normally and is a common reason for deaths that might otherwise seem unexplained.

    You can desensitise cats and dogs to fireworks by masking the unexpected noises with other continuous loud sounds. In the case of your fish you could, in theory, make the pond a noisy place by introducing something that causes continuous similar vibrations but I would say that this would be impractical.

    You should first see if water quality or other health problems such as parasites are contributing to the causes of deaths. If the water parameters or health problems aren't a factor you might consider relocating the pond maybe as an above ground pond on something that will deaden the vibrations. Others on here may have other ideas how this could be done but my opinion is that, if you can't remove or mask the noise, I would remove the fish.

    Sorry.
    Last edited by Manky Sanke; 11-04-2018 at 12:20 PM.

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  6. #4
    Junior Member Rank = Fry auntiemandy's Avatar
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    Thank you Andy,

    We are near West Malling, Kent - it would be great if someone could give us some advice.

  7. #5
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Andy1671's Avatar
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    Im Dartford so could come and see this weekend if its any good to you.
    5000 Gallon Fibreglassed Pond With 54" x 27" Infinity Window
    BD300 Drum Filter
    Artesian 0.5hp - Aquadyne 4.4c Beadfilter - PS4 Protein Shower
    Badu Eco Touch - EP20 UV Sterilizer - ASHP - Venturi
    Hi Blo 60 - Medo 45 - Spindrifter Bottom Drain
    Wide Mouthed Skimmer

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  9. #6
    Junior Member Rank = Fry auntiemandy's Avatar
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    Thank you Manky Sanke, ,

    The local council are trying to stop the helicopter landings in the neighbouring garden and your advice at least gives me a possible reason for losing the fish. We couldn't relocate the pond - the current one is 20ft diameter and 5.5 feet deep - we are just managing to afford the upkeep of the fish now. We were hoping to start rehoming the fish when my Stepdad became ill but unfortunately we didn't get time. I don't think the fish are the sort of quality koi that would appeal to enthusiasts but we would want them to go to a good home. Obviously we can't look at rehoming at the moment as there is a potential problem but it is something we will begin when all seems well. Our local 'fish place' advised using Eradick Anti-parasite and fungus treatment for ten days which we started three days ago. Once the treatment is finished, the uv light can go back on, i will flush/rinse the filter, use the pond vac and have the water parameters tested.

    On closer inspection of the koi that died this morning - she had a 'rotting' tail and one of her gills was covered in a green cotton wool like substance, it wiped off easily but there was no damage underneath. The first photo was taken two days ago when i first noticed a problem. _20180409_143116.JPG_20180411_114613.JPG


    The one other koi with a problem is our largest (we lost the 32" koi a few months ago), spent a lot of time laid on her side at the bottom of the pond during the cold spell, i put in aerators which seemed to help but the snow managed to blow the shed electrics! She spends most of the time near the filter outlet pipe but happy to swim around normally at other times - appears to be slightly bloated on her right side at the bottom behind the dorsal fin - not the scales but somebody mentioned constipation or egg bound? Appears bright but not seen eating much if at all.

    We would much prefer to remove the noise than the fish at the moment and fingers crossed, the council may come up trumps!

  10. #7
    No problem Auntie,

    Although your fish dealer shouldn't have suggested using any medication without a definite diagnosis of what is affecting the fish. I'm sure Andy will give you good advice when he calls (if you supply him with enough tea and cake, that is ).

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  12. #8
    Junior Member Rank = Fry auntiemandy's Avatar
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    That would be fantastic, i'm away to visit family this weekend but i'll see when Mum is free - don't think we can wait if there is a problem. As mentioned in my reply to Manky Sanke, the pond is currently being treated for another week with anti parasite and fungus - once done, i can start the big spring clean up if i can work out how to use the pond vac! I'll pm address when checked with Mum - once again, thank you

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  14. #9
    Junior Member Rank = Fry auntiemandy's Avatar
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    Now tea and cake is something i can manage

  15. #10
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Andy1671's Avatar
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    I have sent you a pm
    5000 Gallon Fibreglassed Pond With 54" x 27" Infinity Window
    BD300 Drum Filter
    Artesian 0.5hp - Aquadyne 4.4c Beadfilter - PS4 Protein Shower
    Badu Eco Touch - EP20 UV Sterilizer - ASHP - Venturi
    Hi Blo 60 - Medo 45 - Spindrifter Bottom Drain
    Wide Mouthed Skimmer

  16. #11
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion voodoo_15_uk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy1671 View Post
    I have sent you a pm
    Good man Andy, I'm sure you can get to the bottom of it.

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  18. #12
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Andy1671's Avatar
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    I hope so, If not i have Syd Mitchel, Pete Marvel and Shaun Slevin to call on
    5000 Gallon Fibreglassed Pond With 54" x 27" Infinity Window
    BD300 Drum Filter
    Artesian 0.5hp - Aquadyne 4.4c Beadfilter - PS4 Protein Shower
    Badu Eco Touch - EP20 UV Sterilizer - ASHP - Venturi
    Hi Blo 60 - Medo 45 - Spindrifter Bottom Drain
    Wide Mouthed Skimmer

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  20. #13
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Andy1671's Avatar
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    Well, My friend Pirate Pete and I had a great day sorting out Mandy's pond.
    Unfortunately Mandy wasnt there but her lovely mother was.
    Cleverly Mandy had written us a letter of what she had been doing with the pond over recent times
    Mandy, your filter need to be on 24/7 365 and dont turn on the waterfall pump until we come back to clean it out
    Scraped 4 koi and found nothing which is always a good start.
    Topically treated some koi and will go back in a couple of weeks time
    We lightly sedated as these are sentimental koi
    One we treated which was sat by the filter return pipe had a bad ulcer
    We cleaned it up, removed a dead scale and treated. Almost immediately the koi (Joseph) was swam around the pond
    A good day out and nice tea and cake
    5000 Gallon Fibreglassed Pond With 54" x 27" Infinity Window
    BD300 Drum Filter
    Artesian 0.5hp - Aquadyne 4.4c Beadfilter - PS4 Protein Shower
    Badu Eco Touch - EP20 UV Sterilizer - ASHP - Venturi
    Hi Blo 60 - Medo 45 - Spindrifter Bottom Drain
    Wide Mouthed Skimmer

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  22. #14
    Moderator Rank = Supreme Champion Feline's Avatar
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    Great news that Andy and Pete were able to visit

    My feeling reading this thread is that the deaths have nothing to do with the helicopter. I live 1/4 mile from a big quarry that carries out blasting twice a week- that feels like a mini-earthquake in our house to the extent that i sometimes have to make pictures straight on the walls afterwards. The koi will dart around the pond immediately when this happens, but are otherwise unaffected by this. To be honest, they are much more freaked out if they see my net or a blue floating bowl

    Shock due to sound (such as shock waves when someone breaks ice on a pond surface) tends to be immediate- so deaths days later would not be down to this. Chronic stress is always a tough one to either prove or disprove. But I think the cause is probably much more obvious and therefore happily more under your control.

  23. #15
    Junior Member Rank = Fry auntiemandy's Avatar
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    Brilliant Andy - thank you very very much. Such a relief knowing what is going on - there's no worse feeling like dreading going up to check them every morning but having to and expecting to find them all belly up! Rang Mum yesterday and was very impressed you managed to catch them - normally they have to be at deaths door before i can get them and by then its too late.I'll get baking as soon as i get home and will look forward to your next visit

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  25. #16
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Andy1671's Avatar
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    There is a few issues with the pond that we will sort out next time.
    The little header pond.....

    The water is slightly off colour and full of sludge .so we will empty the water and remove the plants then give it a spring clean
    The header pond is fed from a small pump that is staying off until we clean it

    The main pond pump is too large for the filter so we need to have a think what to do with it.
    The filter is a big Screenomatic which can handle 17000 lph but the pump is a twin pump oase which I think does 30-40000 lph. The filter has an incoming valve on it and this has been turned down to half. So the pump is under strain and its burning electric it doesnt need to
    5000 Gallon Fibreglassed Pond With 54" x 27" Infinity Window
    BD300 Drum Filter
    Artesian 0.5hp - Aquadyne 4.4c Beadfilter - PS4 Protein Shower
    Badu Eco Touch - EP20 UV Sterilizer - ASHP - Venturi
    Hi Blo 60 - Medo 45 - Spindrifter Bottom Drain
    Wide Mouthed Skimmer

  26. #17
    Junior Member Rank = Fry auntiemandy's Avatar
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    Only got the header pond back up and running last May after a couple of years of disuse - unfortunately the local moorhen and three mallards think it's the best thing since sliced bread which probably doesn't help the water. I still have to build the sides up and fasten the liner - will wait until you've been before putting fishing wire around it to stop ducks as it will reduce access. Had planned to put in some baskets/containers of gravel to aid filtration but will wait to see what you think first.

    The waterfall pump is new, still have the old one if that would be better for the main pond - had no idea about the pump being too big but wondered if something was wrong as it had to be turned down occasionally due to flow going straight over the top of the screen! Anything to reduce the amount of electric we are using can only be a good thing

    Lots of ideas and plans about the pond which i haven't managed to get round to yet - my maintenance list for the house and garden alone is way too long but i'm gradually getting through everything and not having to spend every waking minute round the pond watching the fish for problems will certainly help

  27. #18
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Andy1671's Avatar
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    We will get it sorted for you and get the pond as easy and efficient as possible
    5000 Gallon Fibreglassed Pond With 54" x 27" Infinity Window
    BD300 Drum Filter
    Artesian 0.5hp - Aquadyne 4.4c Beadfilter - PS4 Protein Shower
    Badu Eco Touch - EP20 UV Sterilizer - ASHP - Venturi
    Hi Blo 60 - Medo 45 - Spindrifter Bottom Drain
    Wide Mouthed Skimmer

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  29. #19
    Junior Member Rank = Fry auntiemandy's Avatar
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    The only reason we considered the helicopter is because it is a new disturbance - the koi have never known such noise and vibrations so close to the pond - from very little noise to having six (landings and takeoffs) only 60 metres away over a few days can't have helped - it wasn't so much sound shock i was thinking of with the sudden deaths but the added stress being the final straw for the ones we lost.

    Such a relief to find and join this forum - although i've never been an enthusiast, i know how much these fish meant to my Step-Dad and i would never want any creature to suffer. In the ten months since i've had to deal with them on my own, i've learnt that koi aren't just fish - they have their own personalities and are so friendly! Both Mum and Myself are extremely fond of them now so being able to tap into the knowledge on here and in person is just brilliant

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  31. #20
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Adult Champion bowsaw's Avatar
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    id be very surprised if the birds felt at that distance, aside from the stench of the exhaust and the deafening noise within a very close distance I can't say I notice vibrations each time I get the sky taxi
    the slow pond build thread

 

 
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