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  1. #1

    Gill fluke treatment (hopefully).

    I posted a few days ago about the death of 40 goldfish in my 44,000 litre pond. I wondered if it could be caused by the use of rainwater which I have now stopped. I took one of the dead fish to World of Water for advice and they found the red spots left by gill flukes which presumably had fallen off after death. They recommended Kusuri Fluke P. I drained the pond down to 25,000 litres and treated with a full 1 litre bottle. 2 days on and there has been just one death so I am hoping the problem is fixed although there are still a few fish at the surface.

    The Kusuri states 1 treatment should suffice. At nearly £40/litre I hope so. I don't have a microscope and I noticed World of Water did not have one either, so I have fingers crossed their diagnosis was correct.

    They said to start slowly topping up again after 7 days but did not recommend a total water change. As I said, I removed 19,000 litres leaving 25,000 in the pond.

    Do you think I should slowly top up as they said, or should I take the opportunity for a 100% water change to be on the safe side. I would obviously use dechlorinator. It would also give me the opportunity for a complete pond clean. It is an eco pond with no filtration but 50% full with oxygenator.

    Any comments on any of the above would be welcome ande many thanks to those who previously commented.



  2. #2
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syd View Post
    I posted a few days ago about the death of 40 goldfish in my 44,000 litre pond. I wondered if it could be caused by the use of rainwater which I have now stopped. I took one of the dead fish to World of Water for advice and they found the red spots left by gill flukes which presumably had fallen off after death. They recommended Kusuri Fluke P. I drained the pond down to 25,000 litres and treated with a full 1 litre bottle. 2 days on and there has been just one death so I am hoping the problem is fixed although there are still a few fish at the surface.

    The Kusuri states 1 treatment should suffice. At nearly £40/litre I hope so. I don't have a microscope and I noticed World of Water did not have one either, so I have fingers crossed their diagnosis was correct.

    They said to start slowly topping up again after 7 days but did not recommend a total water change. As I said, I removed 19,000 litres leaving 25,000 in the pond.

    Do you think I should slowly top up as they said, or should I take the opportunity for a 100% water change to be on the safe side. I would obviously use dechlorinator. It would also give me the opportunity for a complete pond clean. It is an eco pond with no filtration but 50% full with oxygenator.

    Any comments on any of the above would be welcome ande many thanks to those who previously commented.
    Hi

    Personally I think the advice given by WoW to be.... questionable.

    A scrape and mucus examination under a microscope of a live fish is the only way to get a diagnosis. Red spots left by Gill Flukes! They are having a laugh....

    My view if that you are really back to base; save you have forked out a load of unnecessary cash on the treatment.

    Dave

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  4. #3
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion andikoi's Avatar
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    my thinking on this from experiance is you should of left pond full and treated,the thing with parasites is they have a habit of hiding and things like costia and flukes and trich can survive in folds and cracks for quite a while,as said about the WOW with no scope how can they check,,,,andi

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  6. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by andikoi View Post
    my thinking on this from experiance is you should of left pond full and treated,the thing with parasites is they have a habit of hiding and things like costia and flukes and trich can survive in folds and cracks for quite a while,as said about the WOW with no scope how can they check,,,,andi
    I reduced the volume due to cost. 44,000 litres would have been around £70 in chemicals. Really struggling with this and not sure what to do. I don't know anyone with a microscope hence asking W of W for help, but being of a cynical nature, I'm never sure if they are just selling.
    I have read that a few fish with flukes in a large pond should not be a problem hence my thoughts about a total clean of the pond with 100% new water and maybe keep the fish in quarantine for a couple of weeks to see how they fair. Any thoughts on where I go from here would be welcome.
    And if there's anyone with a microscope in Hampshire, UK, I would love your help.

  7. #5
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
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    Syd

    Your original thread got rather side tracked.

    The most likely cause of the mass mortalities is either pollution, lack of oxygen or a pH crash. (a pH crash occurs when the water becomes acidic and as a result the normal bio function ceases to break down the ammonia that the fish produce)

    Which one may be difficult to establish but a check on the Ammonia, pH and importantly KH would be a good starting point.

    The chances of it being Gill flukes is (in my opinion) highly unlikely, even in significant numbers they are not a fast killer. If it were down to parasites then more likely to be another species.

    You need to do the Ammonia, pH and KH tests above before anyone can take a stab at suggesting the appropriate action, reason being that if this is a pH crash then it needs to be handled carefully as addressing an acidic pH has a knock on effect on how toxic the ammonia in the pond will be.

    Dave

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  9. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Davej View Post
    Syd

    Your original thread got rather side tracked.

    The most likely cause of the mass mortalities is either pollution, lack of oxygen or a pH crash. (a pH crash occurs when the water becomes acidic and as a result the normal bio function ceases to break down the ammonia that the fish produce)

    Which one may be difficult to establish but a check on the Ammonia, pH and importantly KH would be a good starting point.

    The chances of it being Gill flukes is (in my opinion) highly unlikely, even in significant numbers they are not a fast killer. If it were down to parasites then more likely to be another species.

    You need to do the Ammonia, pH and KH tests above before anyone can take a stab at suggesting the appropriate action, reason being that if this is a pH crash then it needs to be handled carefully as addressing an acidic pH has a knock on effect on how toxic the ammonia in the pond will be.

    Dave
    Hi Dave
    Thanks for your reply. I don't think oxygen is the problem as I have a triple waterfall and a 20 metre stream running, plus 50% pond volume is oxygenator.

    Ammonia is zero.
    pH is 7.2.
    KH is 3.
    NO2 & NO3 both zero.
    GH is 4.
    CL2 is zero.

    All perfect. I have been using rainwater for top up which I have now disconnected. I may have a build up of atmospheric toxins. Years ago everyone said rain was preferable to tap but now I see most reckon tap is better. This is why I still wonder if I should do a 100% change with dechlorinator after letting the fluke treatment do it's work for a week.

    I hope you're right about the flukes. Toxins I can do something about easily. Never had flukes in all my years, be it tropical, marine, koi or eco pond.

  10. #7
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syd View Post
    Hi Dave
    Thanks for your reply. I don't think oxygen is the problem as I have a triple waterfall and a 20 metre stream running, plus 50% pond volume is oxygenator.

    Ammonia is zero.
    pH is 7.2.
    KH is 3.
    NO2 & NO3 both zero.
    GH is 4.
    CL2 is zero.

    All perfect. I have been using rainwater for top up which I have now disconnected. I may have a build up of atmospheric toxins. Years ago everyone said rain was preferable to tap but now I see most reckon tap is better. This is why I still wonder if I should do a 100% change with dechlorinator after letting the fluke treatment do it's work for a week.

    I hope you're right about the flukes. Toxins I can do something about easily. Never had flukes in all my years, be it tropical, marine, koi or eco pond.
    Having put the possibility of pH crash to bed then personally I would be getting the hose and dechlor in there and changing water. Ok it makes the assumption that the flukes are not the issue but it is the route I would follow.

    The ideal would be to get a scrape done of a couple of fish just to rule out Whitespot but it doesn't immediately sound like this.

    Dave

  11. #8
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    The water tests do look spot on, but obviously none of those tests will measure any toxins that have been added to the water by artificial means.

    In the unlikely event gill flukes were the original cause, you'd need to bear in mind they are egg layers and eggs are unaffected by treatments, therefore multiple treatments are necessary.

    I think the only way forward is;

    1) Scrape and microscope of some remaining fish.

    OR

    2) Professional lab tests of the water to identify any toxicity.


    Either one of the above could direct you to the other, but the most preferable start would be the scrape and scope and go from there.

    If the cause isn't either of those 2 most likely things, then bacterial infection would be next to consider. I can't remember if you previously mentioned any physical damage to the fish, but photos/description of this may help indicate whether bacterial infection is a possibility.

  12. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    The water tests do look spot on, but obviously none of those tests will measure any toxins that have been added to the water by artificial means.

    In the unlikely event gill flukes were the original cause, you'd need to bear in mind they are egg layers and eggs are unaffected by treatments, therefore multiple treatments are necessary.

    I think the only way forward is;

    1) Scrape and microscope of some remaining fish.

    OR

    2) Professional lab tests of the water to identify any toxicity.


    Either one of the above could direct you to the other, but the most preferable start would be the scrape and scope and go from there.

    If the cause isn't either of those 2 most likely things, then bacterial infection would be next to consider. I can't remember if you previously mentioned any physical damage to the fish, but photos/description of this may help indicate whether bacterial infection is a possibility.
    I don't know anyone around where I live who can do a scrape and scope. I suppose I could ask a local vet but not sure which if any are familiar with fish. I have treated the water for flukes and while the pond is drained down to 25,000 litres, I have started water changing 10% at a time. Pump out 10% and 2 days later replenish the same amount with dechlor. I will keep this up for around 2 weeks and then slowly bring the pond back to it's 44,000 litres. Hopefully that will solve the toxin possibility.

    After that fingers crossed. Considered buying a scope but they are not cheap. Maybe a cheap USB scope but what magnification would I need for flukes? How do you scrape a fish anyway? Looked on YouTube and they seemed to be using a piece of plastic.

    Thank heavens this is only goldfish and not the koi I used to keep. Even so, fish are fish.
    Last edited by Syd; 31-05-2019 at 05:31 PM.

  13. #10
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Adult Champion anne's Avatar
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    Syd, why don't you give Lee Burroughs a ring...….07879877616, he's only in surrey and as far as I know hasn't
    retired yet I know it's goldfish but you never know he might be able to come and have a look.
    what part of Hampshire are you ? there might be somebody with a scope who could help if they had an
    idea of where you are in Hampshire .

  14. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by anne View Post
    Syd, why don't you give Lee Burroughs a ring...….07879877616, he's only in surrey and as far as I know hasn't
    retired yet I know it's goldfish but you never know he might be able to come and have a look.
    what part of Hampshire are you ? there might be somebody with a scope who could help if they had an
    idea of where you are in Hampshire .
    I live in Chandlers Ford near Southampton. We are too far from Surrey. I am going to buy a USB microscope which are only about £20. I assume 1,000 magnification will be sufficient for flukes. Hopefully with the Fluke P treatment and multiple water changes, the problem will be solved. Thanks everyone for your comments and ideas.

  15. #12
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    You can see Flukes at x40 if you have good eyes, but x100 is better.

    You don't need more than x400 for any parasite.

    A little tip...

    I did loads of scrapes with wooden and plastic stirrers and couldn't find any flukes, but I was sure they were there.

    Noticed someone on here said they used the plastic labels that come poking out the soil with new plants, so I trimmed one to a shape that was comfortable to hold, did a scrape and got a really good mucus sample and found flukes straight away.
    Last edited by RS2OOO; 01-06-2019 at 12:01 AM.

  16. #13
    Banned Rank = Mature Champion Trace's Avatar
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    Hi Syd ... what is the test kit you used ?

    And I'm confused by 50% of your volume is "oxygenator" ... this is a new term to me I'm seeing getting used quite often recently can you explain better to me what it means? ...

  17. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    You can see Flukes at x40 if you have good eyes, but x100 is better.

    You don't need more than x400 for any parasite.

    A little tip...

    I did loads of scrapes with wooden and plastic stirrers and couldn't find any flukes, but I was sure they were there.

    Noticed someone on here said they used the plastic labels that come poking out the soil with new plants, so I trimmed one to a shape that was comfortable to hold, did a scrape and got a really good mucus sample and found flukes straight away.
    The scope I am buying is x40 to x1000 so should be ok. I assume you just use the edge of the plastic. The clip on YT looked like he was just using the surface of a clear plastic slide. Maybe he was using the edge.

  18. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Trace View Post
    Hi Syd ... what is the test kit you used ?

    And I'm confused by 50% of your volume is "oxygenator" ... this is a new term to me I'm seeing getting used quite often recently can you explain better to me what it means? ...
    I used the Tetra 6 in 1 for ponds. I also sent the readings to the Tetra tech I have been discussing this with and he confirmed all was ok. He thought the GH was a bit low but the water changes should fix that.
    The 50% volume is nothing technical. I just meant that 50% of the pond from bottom to surface is crammed with oxygenator of different types. Ranunculus, Hornwort and Myriophyllum. I keep the oxygenator to one end of the pond to allow free swimming space at the other end for the fish as the oxygenator can get quite thick. In fact while the level is down we have taken the opportunity to thin it out. We removed 4 wheelbarrows, all for the compost. Seems a shame but with possible flukes, I'm not risking giving it away. There's enough oxygenator to avoid green water even in the spring. The free surface is interspersed with water soldiers that also need frequent thinning. I have another wildlife pond that is full of soldiers that go mad.

  19. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    You can see Flukes at x40 if you have good eyes, but x100 is better.

    You don't need more than x400 for any parasite.

    A little tip...

    I did loads of scrapes with wooden and plastic stirrers and couldn't find any flukes, but I was sure they were there.

    Noticed someone on here said they used the plastic labels that come poking out the soil with new plants, so I trimmed one to a shape that was comfortable to hold, did a scrape and got a really good mucus sample and found flukes straight away.
    I received the microscope and did 2 scrapes of the one fish that is still at the surface. I have linked a video.

    https://drive.google.com/open?id=1r2...1b53Q78CyV9Fxj

    I could see just one object moving but I don't think it is a fluke. At 40x I could not see it. The video is at 1000x hence the blurred image. At one point the object seems to separate into 2 and then back to one again.

    I assume there is no way to check for gill flukes.

    Hopefully the fluke P I used has killed all the fliukes if that was the problem. To be totally safe, I have pumped out 95% of the pond and it is refilling now with dechlorinated tap water. There are around 15 to 20 fish of the original 60 and all but one seems to be swimming/chasing normally. A few still seem listless but not at the surface. Also removed 50% of the sludge on the bottom in case this also contained toxins. I know it's not recommended but 2/3 of the fish died so not much left to lose. At least I know the water is now safe.

    One final question. Someone mentioned about too much oxygenator. Can this be a problem? I always thought the more the better.

    Thanks for everyone's assistance.

 

 

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