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  1. #1
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Identifying Costia and Chilodonella

    I recently finished treating the pond for Flukes and pleased to say all scrapes have been clear of them since.

    But every other day or so I'm finding a couple of fish sulking, flashing and off food. Its different Koi each time, they perk up again within a couple of days, then the next day it'll be another 2 koi doing it.

    Today it was my Shiro and new Kirin, both flashing, both sulking and clamped (not bottom sitting mind), neither of them eating. The Shiro is a tough and energetic Koi who's never sulked before so this concerned me.

    On the scrapes I see nothing moving whatsoever at 100x

    At 400x I see the following;

    1) Tiny little things moving around which appear to be opaque / colourless. They were moving almost like the desk was vibrating even though it wasn't. They were changing direction so definitely something alive. I filmed them on my phone but really no point posting as you can't see anything more than something moving. They looked almost ear-shaped like Chilo, but all the videos of Chilo look bigger than what I saw and none of the videos say what zoom they're using.

    2) Really, Really tiny little things, less than half the size of the things above, maybe only 1/3 the size. So small they give you a headache to watch. There wasn't many of these to be honest, maybe max of 15 in view at any one time. They looked like black commas but if you fiddle with the focus they suddenly become opaque, then black again as you adjust the microscope.

    Can anyone confirm what I've been looking at and whether based on the size they are Chilo and Costia?

    Both appeared smaller than what you see in video clips, but I'm not aware of anything that small that isn't a parasite.



  2. #2
    Sounds like costia to me, but without seeing a scrape I wouldn't like to say for sure.


    I found chilo last year, alparex nailed it.


    Edit. For anyone who wants to try alparex, make sure you read the label and test your water 1st.
    Last edited by kikokuryu John; 17-05-2019 at 07:41 PM.

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  4. #3
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Thanks John.

    The small ones look like Costia, but they are almost certainly smaller. Couldn't see them at x100 and you had to watch very carefully to spot them at x400.

    The bigger things I saw were about 3 times the size and moved differently, very much like Chilo does in the youtube clips, but again, they were almost certainly smaller as you couldn't really make them out at x100

  5. #4
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
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    OOOh what a pain.

    With a scope the quality of the optics is what you pay that bit extra for. You should see Costia pretty well at x400. They have a tumbling motion. Its not massively unusual to see a few after a fluke treatment.

    If the little ones are Costia then could well be the larger one are Chilodonella, they have more of a bouncing motion and maybe 4x the size? Chilo are nasty..

    I cant give you anything more conclusive but my feel is you may be on the right track diagnosis wise.

    If you have recently used a flubenol based fluke treatment recently then DO NOT use Alparex..

    Look to MGF, it will sort both. 10ml of 2% malachite solution per 176 gallons and 10ml of 36% formalin per 150 gallons.

    Extra air will help them UV off. Remove any sturgeon or orfe..

    If it is Chilo then casualties are possible.

    Dave

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  7. #5
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Found a video that seems to confirm it - a clip that has both Chilo and Costia side by side.

    The bigger things were definitely NOT Chilodonella. Chilo are way bigger than what I saw. Not sure what they were.

    The smaller things are almost certainly Costia, only that where this video shows them at x200, I'd say they looked about this size at x400 through my scope.



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUKF0T191po


    Someone can confirm if this sounds right, some areas of the slide had nothing at all, then other areas that initially looked identical had quite a few "Costia" swimming around all confined to a single patch.

    Does that sound like Costia, or would you expect the entire slide to be covered in them?

  8. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    Thanks John.

    The small ones look like Costia, but they are almost certainly smaller. Couldn't see them at x100 and you had to watch very carefully to spot them at x400.

    The bigger things I saw were about 3 times the size and moved differently, very much like Chilo does in the youtube clips, but again, they were almost certainly smaller as you couldn't really make them out at x100

    Hope you get it sorted.

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  10. #7
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Thanks Dave / John

    Pretty confident I've caught it early enough to avoid casualties.

    2 Koi that were clamped / not eating a few days ago seem fine today. When Shiro & Kirin didn't come for food today I knew something was up, they are both big eaters. Kirin hovering in bottom corner where there's no current clamped up, Shiro clamped up nearer the top, also where there's no current.


    Not going to order from Duncan as I want to treat ASAP, so will pop to garden centre after work tomorrow and get NT Labs MGF.

    With NT Labs MGF should I dose as per bottle instructions?

  11. #8
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
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    It will make no odds on whether it is chilo or not given the now pretty confident ID of Costia.

    Go with the bottle dosages, the MG element will probably be thin compared with DG dosages but safe.

    Good luck

    Dave

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  13. #9
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Thanks Dave,

    Always appreciate your knowledge (as well as everyone else's), and I've needed a fair amount so far this year!


    I think this is the major downside to building a Koi collection slowly, and from different sources.

    Pretty sure I know which fish brought in the costia, and I know with certainty which ones brought in the flukes. None of those fish came from Gatwick Koi, Koi Waterlife or Koi & Water Gardens.

    Going on behaviour alone, I suspect the Costia may have come from the same source as Pips, but with low stocking it was relatively contained up until treating for Flukes.

  14. #10
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
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    Costia is always a possibility to out when a fish is weakened, rather like Ich when you have a significant change in water temp. I wouldn't seek to ever apportion responsibility for either on a source fish.

    Hopefully the sun will shine, water temps will get into the 20s and things will get easier.

    Dave

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  16. #11
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Treated with FMG on Saturday.

    By Monday all Koi were a picture of health and all eating well. Quite a miraculous recovery.

    Tuesday, one Koi sitting on the bottom clamped up early morning. I fed them and he didn't sit on the bottom again all day.

    Wednesday all Koi a picture of health again.

    Thursday (today) 3 koi sitting on the bottom clamped up early morning. I fed them and they haven't sat on the bottom again all day.

    Just scraped 3 Koi (the ones sitting on bottom this morning). All were good scrapes with plenty of mucus, mainly from behind the gills, along the side, and in the dorsal area. (I find it difficult to scrape underneath the mouth and in the pectoral area).

    Spent a good half hour studying each slide, zoomed right to cell level with my new minigrab. All scrapes 100% clear of anything.



    Chuck some food in and they turn into piranhas and stay lively throughout the rest of the day.

    Parameters are good but PH a little on the high side, 3 test kits gave 3 results, 8.3 (NT Labs), 8.5 (Colombo) and the API one was just under 9.

    The FMG has visually cleared but I assume the effects are still ongoing to some degree.

    So why the odd one bottom sitting and clamped for short periods of time?

    If Koi "rested" now and again I'd put it down to that, but aside from that maybe its water related, or specifically PH which I assume is a little higher than normal (8.2) because UV is off.

  17. #12
    I still find it impossible to tell the difference betwixt chilodonella and paramecium. The first time i found paramecium on the pond wall i thought it was chilodonella and i panicked and nuked them.with ICC and salt.

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  19. #13
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    See what you mean - I'd never heard of them and couldn't say for certain that they aren't what I saw next to the Costia.

    As for my Koi, they've all been fine for the last few days.

    Only did one dose of FMG (2 weeks ago now) and have scraped 4 Koi since and not found anything.

    I'm not certain yet, but may have found why some were bottom sitting in the mornings. I tend to test water parameters in the late afternoon or evening and ammonia is always zero. I tend to feed heavier in the evening after work (3 or 4 feeds if weather is nice), and their appetites seem bigger at this time.

    Did a morning water test whilst a couple were bottom sitting and found ammonia at 0.25+

    By midday it was back to zero.

    So I suspect there might have been ammonia spikes overnight which was upsetting the Koi, as I fed them in the morning encouraging them off the bottom, this would coincide with ammonia dropping to more acceptable levels explaining why they remained active for the rest of the day.

    Each day, especially after the FMG dose which may have slightly knocked the filter, this cycle was being repeated, but I wasn't picking it up because by the time I get home from work they've been 10 hours without food and the ammonia levels had dropped back.

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