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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    Thursday 28th March - 6 days since administering Colombo Lernex

    Koi don't seem too unhappy but there's still a couple "resting" on the bottom from time to time, and most of them are still spitting food straight back out indicating that gill irritation is still present, either through Flukes or some unknown reason.

    I will scrape a couple this Weekend to be certain Flukes are still alive.

    So today I phoned 2 reputable long standing Koi Dealers to pay the balance off some new Koi I've ordered, and whilst on the phone I put this information to them and asked their advice.

    Both dealers gave very interesting responses and whilst we've all seen this information before, for it to come from 2 separate and highly experience dealers is enough to convince me that their advice is sound:


    Dealer 1
    You'll rarely get rid of all flukes using fluke treatment alone, you need to PP first to get rid of the Koi's mucus coating to ensure a 100% kill.
    Step 1) Dose pond at 1.5 grams of PP per 220 imperial gallons of water. Don't chase the colour, don't add more, just dose and leave it.
    Step 2) After a few days dose pond with Fluke Solve.
    Step 3) After another 7 days dose pond again with Fluke Solve.
    All Flukes and hatching eggs will now be eradicated.

    Dealer 2
    Flukes are extremely difficult to shift unless you wipe the mucus coatings first. Preferably don't use PP to achieve this as its too harsh on the Koi for what you're trying to achieve.
    Step 1) Check Water parameters and ensure 100% that your PH must be above 7.5 and temperature 12.5C or above.
    Step 2) Dose Pond with Chloramine T at a dosage rate of 10 gram per 1000 gallons. Repeat this every 24 hours for 3 days. Check PH above 7.5 each day.
    Step 3) On day 4 administer the first dose of a proprietary Fluke treatment
    Step 4) If Gill Flukes do a second dose of Fluke Treatment accordingly.


    I appreciate some people here already follow a similar practice and offer similar advice, I just think it's extra reassuring to hear it from professional people that do this very regularly and are extremely confident of their methods.
    The other year i had flukes and did it
    The 2nd dealer way.
    With chlormine T.
    But i only used the chlormine T for 2
    Days.
    Then used fluke p twice. I used fluke p. Because you can use this in colder tempretures. Have nt had a problem since. Fingers crossed.
    Fred

    Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

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  3. #42
    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Found this tonight. Not sure if gill or skin fluke.

    This is after treating with Fluke Solve 16 days ago and Colombo Lernex 6 days ago:

    Fluke March 2019.jpg

    Sorry about the poor picture, could have got a much better one but thought this looked ok when I first took it.
    Last edited by RS2OOO; 28-03-2019 at 08:20 PM.

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  5. #43
    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Just updating this thread for my own records and for anyone else interested to refer back to after Davej gave some very helpful advice on another thread:

    The photo in above post is a skin fluke. I may only have had skin flukes all along and not gill flukes. Sadly I didn't take photos of the original scrapes and don't remember exactly how the flukes looked so can't be certain there were no gill flukes originally, but it seems unlikely as I do recall them all being similar sizes.

    Stripping back mucus with Chloramine T prior to fluke treatment was also suggested by Davej, except 1 treatment is sufficient instead of the 3 recommended by the Dealer above.

    Davej also said Koi spitting food can be linked to increased mucus production clogging the gills, regardless of the initial cause of the increased mucus (i.e doesn't have to be gill flukes).

    I therefore suspect the fluke treatment itself might be a potential cause of increased mucus and food spitting, makes sense as the spitting got so much worse 24 hours after administering Lernex. (These fluke medications don't strip mucus coatings like other meds - so it would make sense that the irritation they may cause, along with any hyperactive flukes could increase mucus production).


    My treatment plan now is to continue standard partial water changes while waiting for temps to hold stable beyond 12C. Dose with Chloramine T (haven't decided whether to do it once, twice or three times, but will handle the Koi to get a feel 24 hours after first dose and decide from there).
    24 hours later, treat with Fluke treatment.

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  7. #44
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Grand Champion john1's Avatar
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    Could you not treat with fluke P as per Fred for the temps.

    I am no good at treatments but 3 x chloramine T sounds very harsh Rs,I suppose it is to strip the mucus so the medication can work.
    Keep in touch with the progress Rs,good luck with it.
    John

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  9. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by john1 View Post
    Could you not treat with fluke P as per Fred for the temps.

    I am no good at treatments but 3 x chloramine T sounds very harsh Rs,I suppose it is to strip the mucus so the medication can work.
    Keep in touch with the progress Rs,good luck with it.
    hi john. morning. when I did the two doses of chlormine t. it never bothered my fish. next time which I hope never happens I will do it the once. I also did 2 large water changes. then dosed twice with the fluke p

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  11. #46
    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Thanks John / Freddy

    After first dose of CT I will guage whether further doses are required by the fish behaviour and mucus levels, and of course water parameters.

    Already stocked up on fluke solve and Lernex so will probably use one of those. Fluke solve is same ingredient as Fluke P and putting it through the smoothie maker mixes it very, very well.

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  12. #47
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
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    Think there is a need to throw in a little more;

    At anything less than 13C you don't have the benefit of the Koi's immune response helping with the natural ability to deal with parasites or the chemicals you add. My personal preference is to take containing measures at lower temps and wait until these are in the mid teens.

    There is evidence that CT on its own at higher doses will eradicate flukes, there was a good article in the annual Koi Mag two or three back from Duncan dealing with this. BUT there are a couple of important facts that need to be carefully considered;

    1) CT becomes increasing toxic at more neutral pH levels, whilst at pH of 8 there is a wide tolerance, at pH 7 the level of CT you can safely administer is a fraction of this.

    2) CT will knock back your bio filters, at higher doses or if done on a repeated basis this can be significant so anything other than low dose treatments is not something recommended for a main pond situation unless there is a significant issue with systemic bacterial infections of the Koi in a system.

    The one thing that a low dose of CT will give you is a lower bacterial count in the pond and thus help contain the secondary bacterial issues you get with the fish if they have been nibbled by flukes or caused some bruising by flashing as a result of the infestation.

    For sure when you add fluke or other treatments, malachite and formalin is another classic example, the fish can respond by producing extra mucus and there can be a die off of the mucus on the koi, you will see this as dull or white patches on the fish.

    Some fluke treatments are faster acting than others, my personal preference over the years has been flubenol based and this will take around a week at "normal" temps. Telmin (which you cant source any more in powder form) will do the job in a couple of days but for sure is real aggressive on the fish. I suspect that there will be a correlation between the speed with which a treatment will impact on the flukes and the "knock" it will give to the Koi, which coming back to the absence of immune response at lower temps would seem to advance the case for something nice and gentle such as fluke solve to contain as being the most appropriate to contain the fluke population( in your particular circumstances).

    Hope this helps

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  14. #48
    i used to use p.p before fluke treatments, p.p has never visibly bothered my fish, of course I cant tell if its doing anything to them, but they always look happy enough. They will go to the pond bottom initially but will come up for food 20 minutes later.
    id sooner use p.p once than c.t 3 times.

    I realise im one of the few that will use supaverm, and the fish visibly dont like it, but ill tell you what, a few days after treatment and some big water changes completed, and the fish are so happy and relaxed, and in my experience it lasts, you wont see another fluke until you introduce them again by sticking new fish in the pond.

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  16. #49
    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai RS2OOO's Avatar
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    2nd April - 11 days since administering Lernex.

    No change whatsoever since day 6 post above.

    Most if not all Koi still trying to take food but spitting it back out, even mussels and I've never seen them spit those out before.
    The fish look healthy but their behaviour isn't 100%.
    Still the occasional bottom sitting going on from time to time but no clamped fins.

    No flashing or any other symptoms.

    Not a single mosquito / midge larvae to be found, so the Lernex wiped them out and continues to keep them at bay.

    Currently doing 20% water change to see if that makes any difference.

    Obviously can't carry out my CT plan detailed in previous posts yet as temps still below 12C.

    Edit: I scraped the Ochiba again, the one who had 5 flukes on previous scrape, and whilst it was a poor scrape (wouldn't stop wriggling this time) I didn't find anything. When you don't find anything on poor scrapes it doesn't do anything to put your mind at rest!
    Last edited by RS2OOO; 02-04-2019 at 06:34 PM.

  17. #50
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
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    Personally I would give them some time before considering a further fluke treatment.

    Scrapes, practice improves your skills.

    Dave

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  19. #51
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Grand Champion john1's Avatar
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    Very disheartening to see this Rs,dont know what to suggest for you someone must have some ideas!!
    John

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  21. #52
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john1 View Post
    Very disheartening to see this Rs,dont know what to suggest for you someone must have some ideas!!
    Pond temps are the key, the fish dont have the ability to bounce back quickly with little if any immune response. They have had the flukes and a cocktail of treatments, they need time and rest.. Winter Koi care in an unheated pond is really about containment and involves patience, to rush is to create problems.

    Dave

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  23. #53
    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Thanks John. I think what Dave said is right.

    It's probably not as bad as it sounds. I'm still learning where koi are concerned but through years of keeping fish in general I've a pretty good eye for spotting when things aren't quite 100% and that is the case right now. There's probably many people who wouldn't even notice these subtle changes in behaviour until things got considerably worse.

    Like most of us, as soon as I spot something not right I want it fixed immediately, but think once temps are a little warmer I should be able to deal with it swiftly.

    Whilst there hasn't been any improvement other than that brief spell after administering Fluke Solve, there's been no notable deterioration either so that's positive.

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  24. #54
    Member Rank = Nisai Jasec's Avatar
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    Rs did you get to the bottom of the promblem?

  25. #55
    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Hi Jasec,

    Not yet, I've not added any treatments to the pond since last update all I've done is 2 or 3 10% water changes.

    Koi are still spitting food but its not consistently the same Koi and far less than the last update.

    There is a small amount of flashing which is likely down to flukes as they were apparent on the last scrape and I've not treated since then.

    The plan still remains the same - Wait for temps to hold consistently over 12C, administer Chloramine T at 10g per 1000 imperial gallons, wait 24 hours, then administer a proprietary fluke treatment which will most likely be Colombo Lernex only because that has the shortest use by date of all the treatments I currently have.


    Its 3.5 weeks since last dosing lernex and as stated I've done 3 partial water changes since administering this, yet there is still no sign of any midge or mosquito larvae in the filter! The reduction in mosquitos and therefore mosquito bites has been significant!

  26. #56
    Senior Member Rank = Kyusai RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Pond temp achieved and held 12C all day today for the first time this year.

    A complete change in behaviour,all of them very lively and all trying to scoff as much food as possible with absolutely no spitting.

    Haven't seen any flashing either for the last 48 hours.

    I know there's still flukes since the last scrape is evidence of that, but it's as if immune systems have suddenly kicked in and the Koi are winning the battle.

    I will still treat as per the plan, but if nothing else today was interesting to observe, like a switch had been flicked.

    For those of you who've brought unheated ponds out of winter for many years this may just be standard procedure, but for me the Koi learning curve is still "early doors".

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