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  1. #1
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Nisai andy m's Avatar
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    Fish die, possible bacteria? Help please

    Hello all,

    Over the last week, I have had 4 koi die. Two 8 inch with no obvious signs, just found dead at the bottom in thd morning. The other two 16 inch and 13 inch had both shown red patches on the sides, which seemed to improve before death.

    Generally, some other fish have been a bit odd. Hanging around in the same spot, slightly isolated.

    The pond is

    7500l
    Ammonia approx 0.3 never more than 0.5
    Nitrite 0
    Nitrate 0
    Ph 8
    Temp today 18 deg
    Kh 12
    Water changes using hma 3 stage filter

    Approx 20 fish, most under 8inch, about 4 at 12 inch and 3 at 16 inch

    Filter cloverleaf cl3


    My wondering is has the sudden temp drop had an adverse effect and brought underlying issues to a head? Speaking to local fish shops they have said a lot of people are losing fish this week. Air temp round here has dropped by about 10 degrees.

    I have only ever lost fish when the temp warms up in spring. Normally 1 a year, but 4 in 1 week is a real worry.

    So far I have flushed the filter through to remove any solids and done a 20% water change. I also have been reducing feeding.

    The other concern is what was the red patch on the sides of two of them?

    Should I be putting a treatment in a a precaution? Or does this risk causing more harm?

    Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks in advance.

    Andy



  2. #2
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion voodoo_15_uk's Avatar
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    You need to get scrapes done ASAP.

    Have you any pictures of the red patches? Are we talking ulcers or raised scales?

    I would recheck your parameters and follow instructions exactly as it’s highly unlikely your nitrate is 0.

    Check for chlorine using dpd4 tablets.

    Personally I would not be happy losing a fish a year as to me that shows there is a problem not being addressed. I have not lost a fish to bacterial or parasite problems in 4-5 years.

    Do not put anything in your water until a positive identification can be made.

    Where are you based as someone may be able to come help you out or direct you to someone who can.


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  3. #3
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
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    Hi

    What do the Gills look like? are they a nice rosey plum colour? Is there any discolouration? Please take a peak.


    Dave

  4. #4
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Nisai andy m's Avatar
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    Thanks for the quick reply.

    I have re checked the water and nitrite is 0.25

    Gh is 213 no reading for kh.

    I will look to get a scope, and idea of what magnifications I would need?

    The red patches were exactly that, patches on the white scales, on one of them it was on the dorsal fin as well which "clamped up" for a day.

    Finally, I am in Swindon.

    Thanks,

    Andy

  5. #5
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Nisai andy m's Avatar
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    Hello,

    Gills are uniform in colour, no obvious signs of an issue. Colour is dark pink.

    Thanks

  6. #6
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion voodoo_15_uk's Avatar
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    Is that defo the nitrITe and not nitRAte at 0.25?
    If it is nitrite then that is a little high and may be one of the reasons they are not well. Stop feeding and start changing water.

    If it is the nitrATe at 0.25 then that’s ok and not to worry.

    For a microscope an apex practitioner is probably the best tool at a reasonable price. Around £118 off amazon. It will have the correct mags you will need for scrape examination. You will also need cover slips and slides.

    You have the World of water in Swindon who may be able to help with scrapes so worth giving them a ring.


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  8. #7
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Nisai andy m's Avatar
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    Hello,

    I will re check the water in the morning.

    In the meantime I will stop feeding as suggested

    Cheers,

    Andy

  9. #8
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Nisai andy m's Avatar
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    Hello all,

    Have re checked the water this morning.

    I am getting
    Nitrite 0- 0.25 very faint tinge of pink in the sample

    Nitrate 10ppm

    Ammonia 0- 0.2

    Ph 8

    Water Temp now 17 deg.

    I will look to see if I can get scrapes sorted asap.

    Does anyone else think that my hypotheses could be correct that the vast and rapid drop in temp has brought out an underlying issue within the fish / pond.

    If the weather remains stable, are the issues likly to stabilise whilst I investigate further or am I looking at further losses?

    Thanks,

    Andy

  10. #9
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion voodoo_15_uk's Avatar
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    It is possible there is an underlying cause exacerbated by the temp changes.

    I assume your pond is not heated?


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  11. #10
    Moderator Rank = Supreme Champion Feline's Avatar
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    I would be very concerned if the pond shop you go to is saying lots of peoples fish are dying at the moment. Lots of people who also shop there?

    When did you last buy any fish?
    There are currently KHV outbreaks going on in some shops in the UK dealing in cheaper Israeli koi, some of which also sell on their fish to other suppliers. Whilst CEFAS is dealing with the known outbreaks by culling and shutting down infected establishments, its inevitable that there will be many more people affected than currently realise it.

    I think if I was experiencing the high mortality rates that you describe and didn't find a cause when I scraped, I would be sending a dead fish off to Lincolnshire fish health for testing just to be sure its not KHV.

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  13. #11
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Nisai andy m's Avatar
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    Hello,

    Thanks for the replys.

    The pond is not heated.

    Last fish was added months ago, probably april.

    Have not been able to scrape as I do not have the facilities.

    I have salt bathed 4 of the fish that were acting oddly. Lathargic, slightly isolated. Will see if that helps. One of them again had a red patch on the side, another on the underside.

  14. #12
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Nisai andy m's Avatar
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    Hello,

    Hopefully if these links work it will show the red patches that I was talking about,

    Any ideas?

    https://photos.app.goo.gl/dQNrBtFanpnbyxDK6

    https://photos.app.goo.gl/AV7bx5reiVfjLCYJ6

    Thanks,

    Andy

  15. #13
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
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    Whereabouts are you?

    If you are in the South and within range of Lee Burroughs of LB Aquatic Consultants then getting him to visit would be my recommendation.

    The red patches look like typical rubs from excessive flicking.

    Dave

  16. #14
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Nisai andy m's Avatar
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    Swindon. So they are a bit far away.

    Having looked closely tonight, some are showing bits of the fins missing, and what I would best describe as spots of fungus on them.

    Any further thoughts?

    Thanks,

    Andy

  17. #15
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Nisai andy m's Avatar
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    Reading up tonight, could the "spots" be an increased amount of mucus that the fish are producing due to infection?

  18. #16
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
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    Hi Andy

    Without mucus scrapes being taken of the fish the cause is straight guesswork. Scrapes will indicate whether or not parasites are present, if they are, in any numbers then the appropriate treatment can be added. If they are not then at the least you will have ruled out this as a cause.

    There is a strong possibility that something is irritating the fish, they then have a scratch and bruise themselves, this compromises their protective membrane and allows bacteria to enter - in the same way a cut can go septic.

    A normal response from a fish that is unhappy will be to overproduce mucus, this can cause blotchiness of the skin, fins becoming ragged is another typical signal.

    If you can identify what is causing the irritation and address it then you will be half way home to solving things, it is then just a question of dealing with the collateral damage to the stock.

    Dave

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  20. #17
    Moderator Rank = Supreme Champion Feline's Avatar
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    I don't think Swindon would be too far for Lee to come at all. He goes all over the country doing pond and fish health checks.

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  22. #18
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Nisai andy m's Avatar
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    Hello all,

    Just to update you all.

    Did a treatment with fmg - No real improvement.

    Was advised to try eradick ( fmg with daily dosage over 5 days) - no more visible signs of white spot, but fish still dying.

    Found a koi shop that were willing to scrape and examin. They found a large load of dead trichodina on a scrape from a dead fish. They suggested cloverleaf absolute parasite plus. Did a treatment of this.

    Still more deaths.

    I was then able to take a dying fish to them to scrap. - found no trichodina ( cloverleaf stuff may have worked) but found a fluke. Gave me fluke solve to try.

    24 houes later no more deaths yet, and fish are starting to become interested in food again. (They have not fed for the 2 and a half weeks this has been going on.)

    Fingers crossed the treatments are starting to work.

    Moral of the story - get scrapes looked at asap.

    I now own a microscope and a lot of hard earned experience. (If this is the end of it!)

    Cheers,

    Andy

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