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  1. #1
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Gosai softlad's Avatar
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    No Flukes for the last 2 years

    Hi all, not posted for some time but like many I had fluke problems back in 2015. My treatment methods came in for some stick at the time if I recall also. But my thought was: why am I dosing and getting no-where? Why am I using products for killing flukes but having no joy?? I even phoned Fiona who created fluke solve who informed me (remember this?) that I had to remove all my BHM from my baki whist treating. Having read so many articles on flukes and treatments and the general consensus that flukes could not be killed off 100% and that a 90% kill was good going I starting to pull my hair out. Was Koi worth all this cash and worry?? Then I thought well, if I'm really starting to think about packing up because of flukes and the continuous flashing a new plan was needed. This was my plan: to hit them as hard as possible for as long as possible with as many products as possible. So the back end of 2015 I did just that. I used one product for 2 treatments Lernex and then the next product for the next 4 treatments lernex pro. I never returned to fluke solve. Now some people are still saying they cant get lernex pro?? Just order it from any suppler and its a good price also. So for all September, October and November I treated. No ill effects were seen yet there must have been some. 2016 came and went, no flukes, no flashing, and no treatments at all (apart from blanket weed). My filters started to show signs of life like my old pond had for 20 years without problems. 2016 came and went and 2017 came, no problems all fish happy and growing well apart from one 20 year old fish who has an history. And again no treatment apart for some CT in spring, low dose and a one off. In fact it was so low no snails etc were killed. So my filters are now full of life how it should be. I'm not saying my pond is fluke free but I've never found one and I've looked but leave the fish alone now to live happily. My fish have the odd flash after eating which all Koi do but that's it, no flashing, the fish swim around calm and happy with fins sticking out like the Queens Guard on parade. There is hope but treating in spring and again in Autumn seems a sales gimmick to me, no I'm no expert but it seems to have worked for me anyway. Oh I also chucked away (well sold) all my K1-K3 and put good old packaging tape in the pre-filters to the baki.



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  3. #2
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Jussai RJW2012's Avatar
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    No Flukes for the last 2 years

    An interesting Thread, given I’ve never heard BHM being a cause for Fluke treatments not to work.

    I think your suggesting K1 was also an issue here - I run K1 in a Profi Combi Drum to a stainless Bakki with BHM, hence my interest. I’ve not had a fluke problem though, touch wood.

    Rob.


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  5. #3
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Gosai softlad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJW2012 View Post
    An interesting Thread, given I’ve never heard BHM being a cause for Fluke treatments not to work.



    I think your suggesting K1 was also an issue here - I run K1 in a Profi Combi Drum to a stainless Bakki with BHM, hence my interest. I’ve not had a fluke problem though, touch wood.

    .

    Rob.


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    Its was Fiona the creator of FS who told me ANY high temp martials such as BHM, Alfa, glass etc etc absorbs the treatment, nothing to do with me, I left it in during the treatment.

    No not at all, just a comment re other alterations I made. I don't like the stuff as a medium myself (after 2 years using it I sold it to a well known/respected member on here who loves it) and my test proved that other mediums worked better in MY case. I could put a link on to test conducted by other another media manufacture if you wish, but no, I didn't mean to suggest K1 was an issue at all, sorry if it came over that way. Darren at AK also love the stuff, each to their own. Going off topic somewhat here though. I still run a small amount in my skimmer easy pod

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  7. #4
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Mature Champion pip895's Avatar
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    I very much doubt your lack of issues is due to all those treatments personally - more likely due to getting the conditions good so the fish can ward flukes off. I have never treated in 8 years. There are flukes about - I have seen the odd one on the very occasional scrape I have done. I don't get much flashing and the fish are fine - with the new drum in I would soon see if there was anything amiss as the water is crystal.
    6000g in ground koi pond
    +3000g lily/Anoxic pond attached
    29 koi (40 to 65cm)
    Bottom drain, Mid water & Skimmer to Drum
    JBR boichamber->Blue eco 500 pump ->below surface return.
    Blue Eco 240 -> Large MB -> Waterfall -> Planted Anoxic pond (25 baskets)

  8. #5
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Gosai softlad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pip895 View Post
    I very much doubt your lack of issues is due to all those treatments personally - more likely due to getting the conditions good so the fish can ward flukes off. I have never treated in 8 years. There are flukes about - I have seen the odd one on the very occasional scrape I have done. I don't get much flashing and the fish are fine - with the new drum in I would soon see if there was anything amiss as the water is crystal.
    I think you're partly correct, water conditions are indeed paramount but my flukes came on new fish. Have you introduced any new fish in the last 8 years?? Also how come the fish stopped flashing after the treatments, surly the meds would 'worsen' the water quality. I had flukes in scrapes and then had none, surly this proves to some extent that at least most of the flukes were indeed killed. I would also expect to see some on scrapes that were conducted 12-24 months after the meds, would you not if you're point of water quality is to be taken has the more likely cure? So to me at least the fact that scrapes had flukes and then NONE over the last 2 years goes a long way to support that I had a major kill of flukes. Now, lets go back to when I treated as per the instructions with FS, treated still had flukes, treated after removing all my BHM as per instructions, still had flukes again and again. Now, I have repeatedly said I'm no expert but I'm also not a person that would discount presented facts that have come via testing with my own eyes.

  9. #6
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Mature Champion pip895's Avatar
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    I have introduced new fish most years. I also have frogs, newts, pigeons bathing in my stream, and even ducks on the pond on the odd occasion. There are flukes about - On most of the scrapes I have taken (not that many I admit) I have found a fluke - on a couple of them a lot of flukes. I have never treated the pond with anything, apart form blanket answer in my 9 years of keeping Koi.

    I have had the odd bout of multiple fish flashing (last time couple of years ago) but It never got too bad and subsided after a few days without me doing anything but clean the filters thoroughly etc.

    I have also had several bouts of a mystery illness that affects one or two fish as a time causing them to sulk for up to a week before recovering completely. I have no idea what this was - fish flu perhaps lol but don't believe for a minute it was flukes. If I was a dab hand at catching fish (which I'm not ) I would have had those fish out and scraped them. I would have found flukes almost certainly and I would probably have been encouraged by people on here to treat for flukes - It wouldn't have stopped the next fish going down with "fish flu or whatever it is" and as fluke treatments aren't always that effective I might well have found more flukes on the next fish and ended up trying a more aggressive treatment - that might have weakened the fish sufficiently to let some other parasite in / messed up my filters and ended up in me loosing fish.

    This may all seem a little far fetched but I have seen this sort of progression play through on this board again and again.

    My working hypothesis is that flukes aren't the issue people think they are and treatment is rarely necessary.
    6000g in ground koi pond
    +3000g lily/Anoxic pond attached
    29 koi (40 to 65cm)
    Bottom drain, Mid water & Skimmer to Drum
    JBR boichamber->Blue eco 500 pump ->below surface return.
    Blue Eco 240 -> Large MB -> Waterfall -> Planted Anoxic pond (25 baskets)

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    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion john1's Avatar
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    Pip,
    I think you talk a lot of sense and that is why i am going down the same route,not treated this year except for blanket weed though i am cleaning the nexus very frequently and my koi are looking very good.

    I have seen a couple sulking on the bottom maybe i would have scraped but i left them alone and they bounced back no problems right. or. wrong i dont know but it seems to be ok for me.
    John

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  13. #8
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Gosai softlad's Avatar
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    I think one of the key points here is: are your fish bouncing of the bottom drain? If not and you have the occasional flash leave them of course but what if your fish are injuring themselves?? Do you leave or treat?? That of course is up to the individual owners. I have spent a lot of time 'helping out' at a well known supplier and I've lost count of how many Koi are sold to replace dead ones. When asked why did you loose your fish (could be more then one) only a handful knew why. The rest just replaced them and will continue to do so on a regular basis. One told me it was like buying a bunch of flowers (expensive flowers they must buy) I think its difficult to say do this that or the other as a regular answer to koi problems.The best option is surly to weigh up each problem you encounter and treat the best way you see fit? Its like saying a car has no problems because your not mechanic yet at a service your told "its good job you brought your car in". I like not to treat at all but if I know there's something wrong I will go out to treat it. Some may say a new fish costs less that the meds. But I cant help looking at some of my fish that are now over 20 year old and thinking I must be doing something right. And at one time they lived in a tiny pond without adequate filteration yet here they are still here, is that right or wrong of me? I believe its wrong, why? Because living is one thing but living happily is totally different. Anyway I digress somewhat. I have caught many many carp over the years and found some full of lice and some with ulcers etc, I could say those fish are happy, they are alive and eating. No matter what the hobby people will have success doing that hobby in far different ways but the result can be the same, who is wrong and who is right or are both as right as each other lol. To deep for a Sunday evening. Someone who treats their fish at the slightest flash or the person who does not treat their fish at all are at the extremes of the hobby, with a greater percentage somewhere in the middle. And who really gives a damn about how someone else enjoys any hobby as each person will indeed think they have the correct method and if you deviate from this method you are doing it wrong. Thats what I love about forums, people give their views and its up to joe blogs to ignore all or part thereof.

  14. #9
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Mature Champion pip895's Avatar
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    Some people I suppose don't treat because they cant be bothered and as you say feel happy to just replace their fish - that is not me I can assure you and I suspect few if any on this forum would be in that category either.

    I honestly believe not treating for flukes is better for my fish. On the odd occasion I have had a fish "bouncing of the bottom drain" I am 90% sure it has been caused by higher than normal nitrite. Last time it happened was last year in the spring as I was ramping up the feeding. The nitrite levels were apparently still acceptable - i.e just a hint of pink on the test but it seemed enough to set off a few fish. In any event cleaning filters/water change and reducing the food a bit sorted the problem without losses the odd scrape and sore patch soon healed up without any need of treetment.

    Many hobbyists are desperate to do something rather than just wait and see. Koi dealerships and garden centres etc are delighted to sell them something to fix a perceived problem even if it isn't really a problem and/or would get better on its own.
    6000g in ground koi pond
    +3000g lily/Anoxic pond attached
    29 koi (40 to 65cm)
    Bottom drain, Mid water & Skimmer to Drum
    JBR boichamber->Blue eco 500 pump ->below surface return.
    Blue Eco 240 -> Large MB -> Waterfall -> Planted Anoxic pond (25 baskets)

  15. #10
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Gosai softlad's Avatar
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    "Some people I suppose don't treat because they cant be bothered and as you say feel happy to just replace their fish - that is not me I can assure you and I suspect few if any on this forum would be in that category either."

    Never thought it was Pip for one second and I never even intimated to that, please don't be so sensitive I'm also certain if any other forum member thought I was insinuating that they would do that, they themselves would take issue. But I did not in any way and fail to see why you feel the need to mention that and defend the whole forum from an insult that does not exist. The fact remains, that is the case with many in the hobby, wherever or whatever forum that they belong to. Stupidity within any hobby is not limited to forum membership Pip.

    Back to topic: But I'm still of the belief that if you know it is a parasite or bacterial problem etc and its causing your fish to suffer you should treat and not wait to see what occurs, that's me. Of course this can be expensive with large volumes buts that another topic. Just has you acted upon the water quality problem you had I acted upon the fluke problem I had. Like I said earlier each to their own. I never meant my initial thread to become a 2 person to-and-fro topic between treating or not to treat for flukes, that's down to the individual to make a choice taking into account all of the variables of their pond etc . There is no right answer and I accept this, its a case by case scenario. I do not agree with your dogmatic view point of not treating for flukes period buts that your view and I accept that, there your fish. As such I'll make this my last post on this issue as it clear your taking my comments truly out of context. All my point was is this: I had flukes, the flukes were causing my fish to damage themselves, and yes, my water was fine, no nitrite etc, it was flukes. I treated as above and now I cannot find any and my fish don't flash and have not flashed for a 2 year period, period. Pure and simple.

  16. #11
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Grand Champion Andre Asagi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pip895 View Post
    I very much doubt your lack of issues is due to all those treatments personally - more likely due to getting the conditions good so the fish can ward flukes off. I have never treated in 8 years. There are flukes about - I have seen the odd one on the very occasional scrape I have done. I don't get much flashing and the fish are fine - with the new drum in I would soon see if there was anything amiss as the water is crystal.

    Are you suggesting it's just....a fluke?

    *Insert Basil Brush Laugh Here*

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    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Mature Champion pip895's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andre Asagi View Post
    Are you suggesting it's just....a fluke?

    *Insert Basil Brush Laugh Here*
    Indeed not - I'm saying its not a fluke at all! BOOM BOOM!
    6000g in ground koi pond
    +3000g lily/Anoxic pond attached
    29 koi (40 to 65cm)
    Bottom drain, Mid water & Skimmer to Drum
    JBR boichamber->Blue eco 500 pump ->below surface return.
    Blue Eco 240 -> Large MB -> Waterfall -> Planted Anoxic pond (25 baskets)

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    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Mature Champion pip895's Avatar
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    Softlad - sorry you aren't happy with the way this thread has gone - I actually think this is an important topic and that discussions like this are what makes a forum. After all if the answers were all black and white you wouldn't really need a forum would you.

    My point is that two years without a fluke issue shouldn't be considered remarkable. You believe that you only achieved it by blasting your pond with a whole series of chemical treatments - I have my doubts.

    There are a growing number of people on here who have their doubts about need to treat for flukes. We care about our fish just as much as you do - we want the best for them, we just have a different view on what the best is.
    Last edited by pip895; 20-11-2017 at 10:25 AM.
    6000g in ground koi pond
    +3000g lily/Anoxic pond attached
    29 koi (40 to 65cm)
    Bottom drain, Mid water & Skimmer to Drum
    JBR boichamber->Blue eco 500 pump ->below surface return.
    Blue Eco 240 -> Large MB -> Waterfall -> Planted Anoxic pond (25 baskets)

  20. #14
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Gosai softlad's Avatar
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    I'm not really bothered how this thread goes as long as some logic can be seen. Ummm, “Nothing is easier than self-deceit. For what every man wishes, that he also believes to be true.” How would you treat your pond for flukes if you wanted to Pip? Is this not a case of ' it would be impossible/very difficult for you to treat your pond (given the description you've provided in your sig) and even if you did there would be no point as the wild life would re contaminate it again anyway' (as per your comment re frogs etc have access to your pond)?? As there is no logic and fact in the term "I have my doubts" you are putting forward an argument for not treating a pond based on your doubt Now I tested over a 2 year period via microscope testing. No. I'm not perfect at testing at all but as I found many prior to treating and none in a 2 year period since does this not make you even consider the fact that the treatment worked?? No, it wont because for whatever reason your heals are dug in now to a point of no return. To now even consider the fact that a treatment worked for fluke would be to loose face. Now can you put a valid reason forward as to why the flukes have disappeared to such an extent that none can now be found on scrapes?? If you can I'll listen all day long, saying you have your doubts is meaningless and somewhat delusional. I don't care how the flukes have been laid to rest, unless anyone can come up with a reason that is on par with the treatment theory I'll be happy to stick with it. If it was down to simple water conditions (in its many forms) I would still be finding the odd fluke would I not?? If I had a pond like yours would I even think of treating it? No, not for one second.

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    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Mature Champion pip895's Avatar
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    softlad you seem to have missed the point. I am not arguing that fluke treatments don't kill flukes.

    We both had flukes in our ponds - you treated your pond I did not. In both cases the fish recovered (no losses) and are now happy and healthy.

    What I am saying is there is another way - no need to spend all that cash and risk damage to filters etc.
    6000g in ground koi pond
    +3000g lily/Anoxic pond attached
    29 koi (40 to 65cm)
    Bottom drain, Mid water & Skimmer to Drum
    JBR boichamber->Blue eco 500 pump ->below surface return.
    Blue Eco 240 -> Large MB -> Waterfall -> Planted Anoxic pond (25 baskets)

  22. #16
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Nanasai Fishplanetkoi's Avatar
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    I think I recall a couple of years back we had this exact argument/disagreement, regarding the treatment of flukes. The only input that I can give through my experience of keeping koi over the last 30 years is as follows :-

    If like me you purchase fish regularly then there is every chance that you will end up with flukes. If you are lucky and the dealer treats for flukes during quarantine then you may well get away with no infestation, but more times than not you will end up with flukes via new fish.

    If you do not purchase new fish regularly then you will obviously not have the same problem of introducing flukes to your pond.

    If you do find that you have a major fluke infestation, then in my experience you will HAVE to treat the pond. No amount of pond or water husbandry will get rid of a major infestation, and they don.t just disappear, and again, all that will achieve, is you watching your fish knock themselves to pieces via flashing etc. or with gill flukes watching the fish holding high up in the water with heads slightly down, at this stage if you don't treat then you will loose the fish pretty quickly.

    I have had major fluke infestations over the years, and have always treated, sometimes the treatment didn't work which can be very frustrating, but having used most of the remedies over the years ie flukesolve, lernex and lernex pro, etc etc. have come to what I feel is a good remedy.

    A couple of years ago there was a series of threads regarding some flukes being introduced from Japan which had become immune to certain treatments. Not sure if this was correct (superflukes) but I haven't heard much about it recently, but again this could have been just miss-use of the treatments etc.

    My method now if I find what I feel is more than acceptable fluke levels is treat with both types of treatment, ie I use firstly a Flubenol based treatment followed (after water change) by a Praziquantel based treatment. This method has worked extremely well for me over the last few years with almost 100% success.
    The reason why I do this is that there maybe some truth in by using the same chemical based treatment over and over the flukes can become a bit immune to it, not really sure about it but I feel that there may be some truth in it.

    I am sure that some on here will no doubt disagree with my methods but, I have found over time that fish treatment....If used correctly...Has no detrimental effect on the fish at all. I know also that people complain that treatments kill their filter bio, but I feel that if you are well filtered and not under filtered, and my pond is massively over filtered so I have never found this a problem.

    So along with this and other treatment regimes, that I have proved work for me, I now find that via this and 30% trickle per week throughout the year, my fish have never been better. I have had no ulcer problems for over 10 years, again flukes can cause this type of problem due to flashing and heavy infestation creating scale damage etc.


    So, in my experience, it is better to KIll them than leave them Lol

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    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
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    I think the point you were making in your initial post is avalid one, if you have an issue and a treatment doesn’t work then it is aquestion of doing the research exploring the potential causes of the failure and then looking at alternate options.

    I am far from convinced that it is down to the BHM, reasonbeing that I have treated both mine and a fair few other ponds with drum and BHM filtration and not consistently had issues with failed treatments.

    My take is that it is highly likely that flukes can develop a resistance to treatments, in the equine world there seems to be a considerable body of evidence to support such with wormers.. If I come across a “failure” of a treatment on a pond then I’d certainly look at an alternative to flubenol based(which is my tool of choice.)

    The other cause of failures (particularly in drum based systems) is not getting the chemical properly dissolved. My focus when treating is on the mixing, if I am using flubenol and acetone then 45mins in a sealed jar being vigorously shaken every five minutes or so. This seems to deliver the best results

    Skin fluke wise- I dothink it is possible to eradicate these from a system, however new fish that are added always carry a risk of bringing some “friends” with them to spoil things. Gill flukes are a different proposition imo– I think some GF presence is something that the Koi (and koi keepers) probably have to live with and if the fish are not asking to be treated then a small population does seem pretty much a fact of life. Personally if I see an occasional GF on a routine scrape I don’t intervene.

    Personally I don’t want to see the disfigurement of my fish that flukes (particularly Skin flukes) can cause, either directly through scale damage from flicking etc or as secondary bacterial type infections – so I treat if the fish are telling me there is a need or if the population is too great(imo). Particularly going in to winter.

    The hobby is diverse and we have to accept this, My regime is to take routine scrapes as a matter of course in the main pond, but I don’t in the wildlife pond as this is rather a chore. If the fish are showing signs of problems then seeing what “may be about” on a slide is, for me at least, part of the diagnosis process. My philosophy being that unless an issue is properly explored (and scrapes would form a part of this) then any “judgement” on whether to intervene or not relies totally on pot luck. But at the end of the day we all develop our own koi keeping methods and have to deal with the consequences.
    Last edited by Davej; 23-11-2017 at 10:35 AM.

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    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Mature Champion pip895's Avatar
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    Interesting what you say about gill flukes - I have never found any but then I have never gone looking I suppose. I assumed if you got those you would have to treat but maybe not.

    What would you consider to be a heavy infestation? I have one fish in the pond for example that was sulking a little, flashing occasionally and flicking its fins, I tested and found 3 skin flukes on one slide - it improved without treatment within a few days and is absolutely fine now.
    Last edited by pip895; 23-11-2017 at 03:56 PM.
    6000g in ground koi pond
    +3000g lily/Anoxic pond attached
    29 koi (40 to 65cm)
    Bottom drain, Mid water & Skimmer to Drum
    JBR boichamber->Blue eco 500 pump ->below surface return.
    Blue Eco 240 -> Large MB -> Waterfall -> Planted Anoxic pond (25 baskets)

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    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Nanasai Fishplanetkoi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pip895 View Post
    Interesting what you say about gill flukes - I have never found any but then I have never gone looking I suppose. I assumed if you got those you would have to treat but maybe not.

    What would you consider to be a heavy infestation? I have one fish in the pond for example that was sulking a little, flashing occasionally and flicking its fins, I tested and found 3 skin flukes on one slide - it improved without treatment within a few days and is absolutely fine now.
    As has been previously stated, flukes do not just drop off and die within a few days, they are still there and they will only multiply! Maybe the fish was not flashing due to the flukes but possibly something else. All healthy fish living in a healthy pond will cope with some flukes, and there is no rule of thumb regarding infestations, its a matter of knowing your fish and watching how they are acting and using the microscope regularly.

    Also, as the temperature drops in the pond the flukes metabolism slows drastically also, and will not be anywhere near such a problem to the fish in cold conditions , but can be a danger as the water warms up coming out of winter and the flukes start to multiply again!

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    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Mature Champion pip895's Avatar
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    I wonder if a healthy fish can produce a mucus layer that effectively blocks a fluke from feeding ?? - pure speculation.

    I last tested that fish two years ago and have had no reason to retest since - whether it still has flukes I don't know, but if it has its showing no signs of it.
    6000g in ground koi pond
    +3000g lily/Anoxic pond attached
    29 koi (40 to 65cm)
    Bottom drain, Mid water & Skimmer to Drum
    JBR boichamber->Blue eco 500 pump ->below surface return.
    Blue Eco 240 -> Large MB -> Waterfall -> Planted Anoxic pond (25 baskets)

 

 
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