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  1. #21
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pip895 View Post
    Interesting what you say about gill flukes - I have never found any but then I have never gone looking I suppose. I assumed if you got those you would have to treat but maybe not.

    What would you consider to be a heavy infestation? I have one fish in the pond for example that was sulking a little, flashing occasionally and flicking its fins, I tested and found 3 skin flukes on one slide - it improved without treatment within a few days and is absolutely fine now.
    You find Gill flukes on samples taken from the body of the fish, they are however rather more difficult to spot than skin flukes which e probably the easiest critter to locate. In my experience if you find 3 or 4 GF on a slide then the fish will have been telling you there is a problem.

    Skin Flukes, in heavy infestations 20-30 in vision at one time at 100x mag - you can hardly see the mucus through the bodies, many hundreds on a slide.. But it does depend on your scraping and scoping - I have been to ponds run by experienced keepers that have scraped and found "just a few" .... to find "just a few hundred" on a slide..

    The issue with SF ( in my eyes) is the devastation they can leave behind in terms of collateral damage, bacterial infections, ulcers etc that take months of TLC, (cost, stress and expense for the koi keeper) to resolve.

    As has been said by others they don't magically disappear, if the temps are decent then the fish cope, but the fluke population will continue to grow, If you look closely at a SF you will see parent, child and sometimes grandchild.... like china dolls...

    In saying this I am not suggesting throwing in chemicals if a critter comes up on a slide, what I am advocating is that Koi keepers get a scope and learn how to use it the reason is to help them in their diagnosis of "problems". Nothing is more painful to see than posts where Guys are treating "blind", I can certainly see how those looking in at these tales ( that often end in disaster) can start to believe it is the treatment that is the cause, rather than the absence of proper diagnostics ahead of such.

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  3. #22
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Mature Champion pip895's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davej View Post
    As has been said by others they don't magically disappear, if the temps are decent then the fish cope, but the fluke population will continue to grow, If you look closely at a SF you will see parent, child and sometimes grandchild.... like china dolls...
    It has also been said numerous times that low levels of flukes are not a problem - Clearly in many ponds including mine an equilibrium exists over long time periods to. The fish are able to control flukes to levels where they don't cause them a problem. For an equilibrium to exist then clearly it is possible for fluke numbers to go down as well as up. If a fish is weakened perhaps by a bacterial problem or poor water conditions flukes will multiply. Sort out the underlying issue and the flukes will diminish.

    I am not actually saying there is never a case for treating for flukes - once a fish is heavily infested then intervention will almost certainly be required, but you also need to sort out the cause of the infestation i.e. what was it that stopped the fishes natural defenses from fending off the parasites in the first place.

    As you say treating blind is often going to end in tears but there have been plenty of sad tales on this board concerning people with all the latest kit and diagnostic equipment.
    6000g in ground koi pond
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    Bottom drain, Mid water & Skimmer to Drum
    JBR boichamber->Blue eco 500 pump ->below surface return.
    Blue Eco 240 -> Large MB -> Waterfall -> Planted Anoxic pond (25 baskets)

  4. #23
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pip895 View Post
    It has also been said numerous times that low levels of flukes are not a problem - Clearly in many ponds including mine an equilibrium exists over long time periods to. The fish are able to control flukes to levels where they don't cause them a problem. For an equilibrium to exist then clearly it is possible for fluke numbers to go down as well as up. If a fish is weakened perhaps by a bacterial problem or poor water conditions flukes will multiply. Sort out the underlying issue and the flukes will diminish.

    I am not actually saying there is never a case for treating for flukes - once a fish is heavily infested then intervention will almost certainly be required, but you also need to sort out the cause of the infestation i.e. what was it that stopped the fishes natural defenses from fending off the parasites in the first place.

    As you say treating blind is often going to end in tears but there have been plenty of sad tales on this board concerning people with all the latest kit and diagnostic equipment.
    I don’t agree. A fluke population will not decrease, or at least I haven’t seen any evidence to support this over multiple ponds and many hundreds of scrapes.. What tends to happen is that if unchecked over a period of years the population will increase to a level when the fish are no longer asymptomatic. This is how the real heavy infestations arise, they don’t happen overnight.

    Your assertions seem to be based on nothing more than guesswork as to what is going on with the fluke population in your pond?

    I agree there are plenty of sad tales, having the latest “ kit” is one thing, being able to use it another, it takes practice to be able to net, scrape and scope, but these practical skills are ones that koi keepers have had to learn well before all the fancy “new” kit came onto the market..

    Any treatment carries risk but identifying the specific target / confirming that parasites are / are not present provides the best basis for the koi keeper to be able to consider the way forward.
    Last edited by Davej; 25-11-2017 at 11:55 AM.

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  6. #24
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Mature Champion pip895's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davej View Post
    I don’t agree. A fluke population will not decrease, or at least I haven’t seen any evidence to support this over multiple ponds and many hundreds of scrapes.


    I'm afraid I'm not going to catch and scrape just to prove a point but if you think about it for an equilibrium to exist fluke numbers have got to be able to go down as well as up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Davej View Post
    What tends to happen is that if unchecked over a period of years the population will increase to a level when the fish are no longer asymptomatic. This is how the real heavy infestations arise, they don’t happen overnight.
    I am not an expert like yourself, but I have been keeping koi for 9 years - my suspicion is given the nature of my pond, that for most of that time there have been flukes around and no treatments have ever gone in - so how long do you think its going to take for flukes to build up to problematic levels? In my rather limited experience flukes actually multiply rather rapidly if you have a vulnerable fish.


    Quote Originally Posted by Davej View Post
    Your assertions seem to be based on nothing more than guesswork as to what is going on with the fluke population in your pond?
    This is true - It is largely guesswork but the standard mantra of, if you have flukes you have to treat or they will only get worse, just doesn't fit in with my experience.


    Actually my current understanding is all down to the incompetence of an Amazon delivery driver!

    Back in 2015 I purchased 5 fish over the internet (not something I will repeat). To cut a long story short they got sick were sulking and they, and some of my other fish, were flashing. I managed to catch and test a few fish including the two showing the worst symptoms and found they were crawling in flukes - one had a lot - perhaps 20x per slide. Incidentally I had tested them when they first arrived and hadn't found any flukes and that was only a few weeks earlier. It could have been incompetence in taking the scrape but I don't think so.

    I put two of the new fish in my quarantine tank. I had purchased the last pack of Fluke M from my local supplier but it wasn't enough to treat the pond so I treated the quarantine and ordered sufficient Fluke M to treat the pond via Amazon Prime. I can confirm that the treatment in the quarantine worked, in that when I retested for flukes a couple of days later all I found were dead ones. The Amazon order however didn't arrive, about 4 days later a neighbour about three doors down found my parcel in his shed!

    By this time the fish in the main pond weren't flashing and what's more the worse affected fish in the quarantine had died + the other didn't look too good. It was almost certainly an underlying bacterial infection that killed the fish not the Fluke M, but I wasn't going to risk it. I returned the surviving fish to the pond and put the Fluke M in the cupboard - its still there and probably out of date by now so I should really chuck it.

    I hope you can understand why my experience has lead me to doubt the need to treat for flukes - even if you think its all - just a fluke!
    6000g in ground koi pond
    +3000g lily/Anoxic pond attached
    29 koi (40 to 65cm)
    Bottom drain, Mid water & Skimmer to Drum
    JBR boichamber->Blue eco 500 pump ->below surface return.
    Blue Eco 240 -> Large MB -> Waterfall -> Planted Anoxic pond (25 baskets)

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  8. #25
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Nanasai Fishplanetkoi's Avatar
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    I for one don't think its a fluke Pip, maybe just a case of your disappearing flukes ay! Lol

    Again I notice that you say that the fish died due to 'almost certainly a bacterial infection and not the flukes' How would you be sure of that? if you are not sure, then again its guesswork isn't it?

    You also say that you put a fish 'that didn't look too good' back into your pond, thinking its a bacterial issue, that seems a very dangerous thing to do, but again you were obviously very lucky, as not really knowing what the problem was you could have wiped out your pond! Its pretty basic stuff really.

  9. #26
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pip895 View Post
    I'm afraid I'm not going to catch and scrape just to prove a point but if you think about it for an equilibrium to exist fluke numbers have got to be able to go down as well as up.


    I am not an expert like yourself, but I have been keeping koi for 9 years - my suspicion is given the nature of my pond, that for most of that time there have been flukes around and no treatments have ever gone in - so how long do you think its going to take for flukes to build up to problematic levels? In my rather limited experience flukes actually multiply rather rapidly if you have a vulnerable fish. [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]



    This is true - It is largely guesswork but the standard mantra of, if you have flukes you have to treat or they will only get worse, just doesn't fit in with my experience.


    Actually my current understanding is all down to the incompetence of an Amazon delivery driver!

    Back in 2015 I purchased 5 fish over the internet (not something I will repeat). To cut a long story short they got sick were sulking and they, and some of my other fish, were flashing. I managed to catch and test a few fish including the two showing the worst symptoms and found they were crawling in flukes - one had a lot - perhaps 20x per slide. Incidentally I had tested them when they first arrived and hadn't found any flukes and that was only a few weeks earlier. It could have been incompetence in taking the scrape but I don't think so.

    I put two of the new fish in my quarantine tank. I had purchased the last pack of Fluke M from my local supplier but it wasn't enough to treat the pond so I treated the quarantine and ordered sufficient Fluke M to treat the pond via Amazon Prime. I can confirm that the treatment in the quarantine worked, in that when I retested for flukes a couple of days later all I found were dead ones. The Amazon order however didn't arrive, about 4 days later a neighbour about three doors down found my parcel in his shed!

    By this time the fish in the main pond weren't flashing and what's more the worse affected fish in the quarantine had died + the other didn't look too good. It was almost certainly an underlying bacterial infection that killed the fish not the Fluke M, but I wasn't going to risk it. I returned the surviving fish to the pond and put the Fluke M in the cupboard - its still there and probably out of date by now so I should really chuck it.

    I hope you can understand why my experience has lead me to doubt the need to treat for flukes - even if you think its all - just a fluke!
    Pip; I am not an "Expert" - I am a Koi keeper.

    Good Luck, you are clearly on a mission.

  10. #27
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Mature Champion pip895's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fishplanetkoi View Post
    Again I notice that you say that the fish died due to 'almost certainly a bacterial infection and not the flukes' How would you be sure of that? if you are not sure, then again its guesswork isn't it?
    I actually sad it "It was almost certainly an underlying bacterial infection that killed the fish not the Fluke M" It didn't have flukes when it died so I wasn't blaming the flukes.

    The whole episode with these fish was rather sad. I had had a very stable and healthy pond for years my last loss before this was one being taken by a Herron back in 2013. I decided to add some new fish after a big pond upgrade. I was determined to do things right and quarantine the fish before adding them to the new pond. The quarantine had been set up for months with half a dozen goldfish - I knew the filtration wouldn't be up to much so added a bag of mature K1 from the main pond to the filter and assumed that would be fine. Big mistake - basically poor water quality during its initial few days with me killed that fish - that lead to both the bacterial and fluke issues - which came first I don't know. If I set up a quarantine again It would have a Seneye monitoring the water 24/7 and I will be testing every day for Nitrite. Incidentally the water was fine when I reintroduced the two fish to the quarantine but once one had died and the other was on his own in there, I didn't think he would recover.
    Last edited by pip895; 26-11-2017 at 11:27 AM.
    6000g in ground koi pond
    +3000g lily/Anoxic pond attached
    29 koi (40 to 65cm)
    Bottom drain, Mid water & Skimmer to Drum
    JBR boichamber->Blue eco 500 pump ->below surface return.
    Blue Eco 240 -> Large MB -> Waterfall -> Planted Anoxic pond (25 baskets)

  11. #28
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Nanasai Ianb's Avatar
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    My understanding of mucus is that fish only generate a thick layer of mucus to try and protect themselves against the invading parasite, my rationale is therefore that a fish with excess mucus is no longer in the best of health. On clear scrapes with no signs of a fish flashing, flicking, fin rot or ulcers in my experience the mucus layer has always been quite thin.
    I have also had an episode of flukes that caused a lot of collateral damage to fish, various treatments have failed as I feel the flukes have become immune, finally cleared up with a wormer treatment, no problems since (2 years) but at the time I had 2 multibays which I thought were clean. I now use an easypod followed by a multibay to polish. I now use more water when maintaining the filter as I boil the easypod quite a lot. I use ST as a declorinator and bought a 3 pod heavy metal remover, top up over 3 hours and add bicarb at intervals when topping up.
    I believe that in this case the treatment was necessary and believe that topping up slowly, avoids any sudden changes in water conditions which the fish are grateful for and has helped keep all parasites under control. I also keep the water at 14 degrees throughout winter. To sum up I think there can be more variables as well as treatments and the trick is to try and keep a stable program but as all koi ponds differ in some way it can be a case of trail and error. Hopefully we all get there in the end and we can then enjoy our hobby with the health of the fish being the main focus
    PS I go to a well respected and reputable koi dealer and he believes that if you looked hard enough that there wouldn't be a koi pond in the country completely free of flukes. Would not be overly concerned if I found the odd one, but treating is always a judgement call. I base my judgement on excessive flicking or if I see something amiss when feeding

  12. #29
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion Doghouse Riley's Avatar
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    I've not had flukes for 2 years either. All mine have had in 2017 was two doses of M&F seven days apart. "Probably more for my benefit (peace of mind, 'cos I made the effort) than for the fish."

    Have used Kusuri Fluke M in the past. Very effective.
    "The information's out there,
    You only have to let it in." (Jesse Stone)

 

 
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