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  1. #1
    Senior Member Rank = Mature Champion 14crazychris's Avatar
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    Insect based Koi feed

    Hi guys

    I have been part of this forum since I was 15/16 (now 21) and I am developing a business for my final year university project. Recently I posted some questions on feeding Koi Black soldier fly larvae, these answers were really helpful. The business is based around feeding insects to koi as a more sustainable and environmentally friendly feed. I have some further questions for everybody if they wouldnt mind answering? All help will be greatfully recived.

    Would you consider switching your current food to an insect based diet?
    what price do you currently pay per Kilo for Koi food?

    The diet will be sustainably sourced preventing damage to global fisheries as it is 100% free of marine ingredients. The diet will have a high protein percenatge (approximatly 45%) and represent a more natural based diet, still containing colour enhancement additives.

    Any answers would be great, if you would rather not share this information, pm's are more than welcome.

    Cheers Chris


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  3. #2
    Member Rank = Sansai Mirza's Avatar
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    I would try it at least one season
    I pay 80 € - 15 kg ...It's about 5,3 € for one kilogram

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  5. #3
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    1) Would only consider completely changing if the cost vs benefits had been proven. Would be more than happy to do a 50% mix with existing food, but unlikely I would switch completely as Koi are my pets and I like to feed a variety of foods. If I had a fish farm on the other hand, my considerations would be cost vs growth. If the numbers stacked up in that scenario I would completely switch.

    2) £4.40 kilo frozen mussels, £25 kilo Saki Hikari, £11 kilo NT Labs probiotic growth. These are the 3 main foods I've fed this year.


    As for insect based foods..... some anecdotal evidence.

    A relative was given a water feature as a gift, 3 wooden half-barrels stacked on top of each other. No filter, just a pump that was used during the day in summer. In total I'd say it took around 50 litres. They bought 3 tiny shubunkins and chucked them in the bottom barrell which contained around 20 litres. Once autumn came the feature was forgotten about... forever.

    4 Years later I received a phone-call. The feature had rotted and she was emptying the water out ready to dispose of it and a fish came out. I went round there to discover a beautiful 6" long shubunkin. That shubunkin hadn't been fed for over 3.5 years and can only have survived on insects and larvae throughout the time. The colours were incredible, it looked so healthy.

    I took it home and stuck it in an ornamental tank, feeding it predominently on Hikari Gold and Hikari staple. Within a few Months its colours had faded and no matter what I did I never managed to get it looking like the day I picked it up and the only reason I can think of for that was the food I was feeding. I just could not replicate the diet of insects and larvae it had lived on throughout its life.

    That all happened in 2011 and sadly she passed away in May 2018 at around 12 years old. (No parasites or diseases, just deteriorated over 2 or 3 days and died).

    Here's an old photo from 2014. Her colours had already faded by this point but she still put on a further 2 or 3 inches before passing away. The incredibly long fins are a possible sign of stunted growth even though she did continue to grow slowly and spawned at least once per year.

    Attachment 26679
    Last edited by RS2OOO; 06-01-2019 at 10:15 PM.

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  7. #4
    Senior Member Rank = Mature Champion 14crazychris's Avatar
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    Cheers guys! Really helpful information any more would be great! Cheers RS2000 that’s really interesting!


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  9. #5
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Adult Champion bowsaw's Avatar
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    Bristol fish project have a facility doing just this, ring them a message
    the slow pond build thread

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  11. #6
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Grand Champion lee63's Avatar
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    Insect based Koi feed

    Carp are omnivores so they naturally do not select an insect only based diet, Especially a non marine one. They graze on algae’s and plant life too dont forget.
    Some people purposely run green water at certain times as they believe and i also do to an extent that it really helps with colours? I dont think theres any hard proof but some do seem to show that it works.

    As for the feeding chris, i already feed dried insects such as black soldier fly, silk worm and meal worms etc... as treats or additions.
    I dont believe a purely insect based is any good for carp as there natural food source is very much fresh/live marine based ay such as shrimp and other crustaceans/larvae’s.
    I would definitely feed an insect based food but not soley.
    I cant really give an accurate cost per kilo of what i feed because i feed all sorts ha ha, pellets from saki hikari’s range to queni koi’s/coppens, fresh mussels and cockles to dried shrimp/flys/mealworms etc... even fresh worms from the compost bins at home.
    I like your idea but as a business venture i think the purely insect base is floored from the off if im honest. Plus its all already out there, any sustainable source can already be bought dried and packaged for koi. It would be a tough market to be in for sure.


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  13. #7
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Hi Lee,

    You are correct about green water. On Asian fancy goldfish forums there are whole categories devoted to getting the best green water. They also use green water as a natural filtration with no mechanical filter fitted at all. Those people are really competitive in the show scene so not being able to see their fish all year round isnt a problem.

    Green water definitely improves colouration on goldfish, and probably koi too.

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  15. #8
    Senior Member Rank = Mature Champion 14crazychris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee63 View Post
    Carp are omnivores so they naturally do not select an insect only based diet, Especially a non marine one. They graze on algae’s and plant life too dont forget.
    Some people purposely run green water at certain times as they believe and i also do to an extent that it really helps with colours? I dont think theres any hard proof but some do seem to show that it works.

    As for the feeding chris, i already feed dried insects such as black soldier fly, silk worm and meal worms etc... as treats or additions.
    I dont believe a purely insect based is any good for carp as there natural food source is very much fresh/live marine based ay such as shrimp and other crustaceans/larvae’s.
    I would definitely feed an insect based food but not soley.
    I cant really give an accurate cost per kilo of what i feed because i feed all sorts ha ha, pellets from saki hikari’s range to queni koi’s/coppens, fresh mussels and cockles to dried shrimp/flys/mealworms etc... even fresh worms from the compost bins at home.
    I like your idea but as a business venture i think the purely insect base is floored from the off if im honest. Plus its all already out there, any sustainable source can already be bought dried and packaged for koi. It would be a tough market to be in for sure.


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    Hi Lee

    Thank you for your detailed reply, it was really helpful and gave some interesting pointers.

    The diet isn’t solely insect based. It’s just using insects to replace the Marine portion of the diet. With a more natural diet for carp. The diet is very similar to other Koi diets but the main ingredients are insects rather than marine fish/oil. The diet is therefore sustainable sourced and more eco friendly. The diet also contains natural colour enhancers, prebiotics and clay. I don’t Believe there is another Koi food currently on the market providing this but I may be wrong. The business is aimed at initially supplying a sustainable more natural feed for Koi, goldfish and predatory fish such as cichlids.

    Thanks for the criticism, this is helpful as it allows us to research the floors or potential areas the business needs to be changed on. Thanks for taking time to help. Will have a look into algae’s and possibly working this into the diet.

    Many thanks
    Chris


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  17. #9
    Senior Member Rank = Mature Champion 14crazychris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowsaw View Post
    Bristol fish project have a facility doing just this, ring them a message
    Cheers bowsaw will have an investigate


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  18. #10
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Black Soldier Fly based dog food has just gone on sale:

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/d...-a4035061.html

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  20. #11
    Senior Member Rank = Mature Champion 14crazychris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    Black Soldier Fly based dog food has just gone on sale:

    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/d...-a4035061.html
    Awesome! Think this going to be the new trend!


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  21. #12

    Insect Meal.

    Hi/ Any updates? Thank you

  22. #13
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maddog1 View Post
    Hi/ Any updates? Thank you
    Don't think the OP posts on here much now and if I recall correctly he moved his efforts into fancy goldfish and has a YouTube channel.

    I could ask the question in his comments section but I suspect there hasn't been any major advancement in his plans.

    As for insect meal itself, I don't think the Japanese or any serious hobbyists are convinced, but I don't think that necessarily means its no good as I'm not aware of anyone that's done a proper side by side comparison, people seem to be working on the basis that if it was that good Saki Hikari would be investing in it.

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  23. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    Don't think the OP posts on here much now and if I recall correctly he moved his efforts into fancy goldfish and has a YouTube channel.

    I could ask the question in his comments section but I suspect there hasn't been any major advancement in his plans.

    As for insect meal itself, I don't think the Japanese or any serious hobbyists are convinced, but I don't think that necessarily means its no good as I'm not aware of anyone that's done a proper side by side comparison, people seem to be working on the basis that if it was that good Saki Hikari would be investing in it.

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    Hi/ Thank you for your reply, Just thinking about my next choice of food, Feeding top koi at the moment. Going through old post on here etc. And my concerns are insect meal vs fish meal. And the fact that the top Koi is 49% protein and my fish are 3 yrs old up to 35 years old. And the protein is very high. I don't heat my pond, I was looking at the Saki Hikari Balance. And in the winter I feed Coppens wheat germ. Which I've heard people say it makes for a big Belly.

  24. #15
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion davethefish1's Avatar
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    i don't think black soldier fly larvae have the corrrect amino acid profile to make a good food for koi.
    it's being used as a cheap high protein source that can be made in high volumes.
    with the trendy word 'sustainable' to make it sell...mass produced foods of any kind rarely turn out to be of good quality or healthy...

    i agree topkoi is too high in protein for anything over tosai/nisai
    but you can cut it with lower protein more digestable coppens pellets to make a better mix, the only thing i would avoid is anything with poultry meal.

    when i was using coppens/queni koi food i made a mix of 1/3 ultimate koi, 1/3 colour plus, and 1/3 wheatgerm
    that added together and divided by 3 ended up with a protein level of 41% which was more reasonable for older koi and more digestable, especially below 20C

    they did like eating the queni japan mix (similar to coppens OSW)
    but colours were not strong, the fish did get fat on it, and growth was not brilliant.

  25. #16
    Hi Dave. Thank you for the reply, 100% agree with you on the insect protein and the idea of the mixing of food is a Great idea. Thank you again.

  26. #17
    Senior Member Rank = Supreme Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maddog1 View Post
    Hi/ Thank you for your reply, Just thinking about my next choice of food, Feeding top koi at the moment. Going through old post on here etc. And my concerns are insect meal vs fish meal. And the fact that the top Koi is 49% protein and my fish are 3 yrs old up to 35 years old. And the protein is very high. I don't heat my pond, I was looking at the Saki Hikari Balance. And in the winter I feed Coppens wheat germ. Which I've heard people say it makes for a big Belly.
    I think personal opinion comes into this to some degree but happy to share my opinion.....

    Top Koi - a very good food, my fry/Tosai grew like crazy on it achieving jumbo Tosai status at 8 months old (can't remember exactly sizes without checking back, but it was between 30 and 35cm).

    But with the older koi Top Koi clouded the water quite badly with a yellow/brown tint after a couple of weeks feeding and there was a lot of waste on pond floor in the mornings.

    Ingredient wise, I only feed food that has white fish meal as the 1st ingredient. That's my preference and I would say it works well with my fish.

    I don't feed wheatgerm based food ever.

    Saki Balance is great. I feed it all year round down to 8C and it keeps my fish healthy and water crystal clear. They grow ok on it too with 6/7 year old fish still adding a few cm each year.

    I currently have 2 young fish, one's just turned Nisai (37cm) and the other Sansai and is only 35cm, so will be feeding saki growth this summer in the hope of giving them a push as they are both a bit smaller than I'd like. By default that means all my older fish will be getting growth food as well, so will be interesting to see if they get some kind of boost.


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  28. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    I think personal opinion comes into this to some degree but happy to share my opinion.....

    Top Koi - a very good food, my fry/Tosai grew like crazy on it achieving jumbo Tosai status at 8 months old (can't remember exactly sizes without checking back, but it was between 30 and 35cm).

    But with the older koi Top Koi clouded the water quite badly with a yellow/brown tint after a couple of weeks feeding and there was a lot of waste on pond floor in the mornings.

    Ingredient wise, I only feed food that has white fish meal as the 1st ingredient. That's my preference and I would say it works well with my fish.

    I don't feed wheatgerm based food ever.

    Saki Balance is great. I feed it all year round down to 8C and it keeps my fish healthy and water crystal clear. They grow ok on it too with 6/7 year old fish still adding a few cm each year.

    I currently have 2 young fish, one's just turned Nisai (37cm) and the other Sansai and is only 35cm, so will be feeding saki growth this summer in the hope of giving them a push as they are both a bit smaller than I'd like. By default that means all my older fish will be getting growth food as well, so will be interesting to see if they get some kind of boost.


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    Hi Mate. Thank you for your reply. I have been reading your old post on the subject. And I'm finding them very interesting.

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  30. #19
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Adult Champion NickK-UK's Avatar
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    Although an old post, I would also consider the effect of high protein is a seasonal thing - typically during the winter months, the seasonal food becomes more wheatgerm based. That has implications on your cashflow for a high protein source food unless you export (an additional cost for testing, licensing, marketing and shipping etc). Previously owners used to heat their ponds over winter and thus had more protein demand over that time, the economic issues and high fuel prices now mean less people heat over winter or even in summer, narrowing the high protein season.

    I'm also a mixer of food - in my case it's a ratio of NTLabs Medikoi Health (protein) and Medikoi Wheatgerm (more carb and fibre). I will mix in treats for both protein (mealworm or the small shrimp is a favourite with the older fish) but also Spirullia disks (which have shrimp mixed but a high percentage of Spirrula algae) that sink. My fish also all graze off the algae at the sides of the pond.

    So in summer they have more Heath and less Wheatgerm in the mix, then in that then varies to winter which is basically wheatgerm. I mix out of the 5Kg & 3Kg packs and keep them in a sealed container, they are then fed from the 5litre lided container. This seems to be a good compromise for keeping the feed fresh for the season, and having to mix a new batch feed mix every 3 months or so.

    I pay around £80 for 5Kg for the Heath once a year or there abouts, and a 3Kg Wheatgerm pack will then last through the winter and the seasons for about the same time.

    So also worth thinking how long the feed remains fresh, vs the feed rate to give an idea of a pack size to the nearest 1Kg.
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