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  1. #1

    Did your koi turn out the way you wanted?

    Hi everyone,

    I've been keeping koi for around 10 years now, and I've spent a small fortune on them over the years, but it dawned on me, that not one of my koi has turned out the way I wanted it to so far,

    I was wondering if you had experienced the same thing, I usually keep koi for around 3 years and if their not going in the right direction I move them on, usually for a lot less than what I paid



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  3. #2
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
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    For sure, but thats Koi

    The more you spend on a fish, the greater the expectations.. It is a crazy hobby.

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  5. #3
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Was thinking about this same thing tonight. None of mine have improved.

    An 8cm Kohaku that has turned out really nice, except it's now getting on for Sansai and hasn't grown beyond 13cm.

    A lemon Doitsu Hariwake that has good shape and beautiful skin, but has lost nearly all its yellow.

    A Sanke that would be great if it were a Showa! Head to tail in Sumi. (Funny thing is, every non-koi person picks this one as a favourite)

    Another Sanke that has lost almost all its beni.

    A Shusui where all the light blue has turned black.

    And to top it all, my new Kirin now has black nostrils and looks like the gill covers will go black too. I'd put money on it eventually losing its yellow as well!


    For those that haven't got worse.... probably just a matter of time!!

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  7. #4
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    Was thinking about this same thing tonight. None of mine have improved.

    An 8cm Kohaku that has turned out really nice, except it's now getting on for Sansai and hasn't grown beyond 13cm.

    A lemon Doitsu Hariwake that has good shape and beautiful skin, but has lost nearly all its yellow.

    A Sanke that would be great if it were a Showa! Head to tail in Sumi. (Funny thing is, every non-koi person picks this one as a favourite)

    Another Sanke that has lost almost all its beni.

    A Shusui where all the light blue has turned black.

    And to top it all, my new Kirin now has black nostrils and looks like the gill covers will go black too. I'd put money on it eventually losing its yellow as well!


    For those that haven't got worse.... probably just a matter of time!!
    I have set aside a couple of black fry for you, circa 25mm at the moment. Beni is coming through but not totally clear where the shiroji is going to fall... Align your expectations

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  9. #5
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Thanks Dave, looking forward to it and have a tank and mature filter set up already.

    Will send you a PM.

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  11. #6
    The only fish i have. That turned out right for me. Is my chag.
    Wasted good money.
    So now i buy small and grow on.
    So now most are just mutts.
    But i still love them all

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  13. #7
    Nope lol

    Bought my first tancho thinking it was the dogs danglies. A few years later it's a white koi that someone shot in the head with a paintball gun carrying red ammo! A proper splodge but I love it none the less.

    I have a shiro utsuri I have had from 3 inch. It's around 60cm now and I am happy how that's turned out. But it's just a black n white koi one of the easier ones to get right.

    I think if you're buying Japanese the really special units are held back to grow on and if you want a perfect specimen of a certain size you need to buy it at that stage or breed one or be very lucky.

    Just my opinion.

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  15. #8
    Totally get what your saying about the Japs keeping best back!! unless huge bucks are exchanged!!

    I find body shape on koi seem to go wrong more than colour and pattern, most end up like cricket bats, or long tubes!!

    So if you went for a Tosai between £500 and £1000 what sort of percentage do you think that koi would have of fulfilling a perfect body over 70cm and keeping its colour and pattern?

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  17. #9
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by koicrazysteve View Post
    Totally get what your saying about the Japs keeping best back!! unless huge bucks are exchanged!!

    I find body shape on koi seem to go wrong more than colour and pattern, most end up like cricket bats, or long tubes!!

    So if you went for a Tosai between £500 and £1000 what sort of percentage do you think that koi would have of fulfilling a perfect body over 70cm and keeping its colour and pattern?
    Are you talking gosanke?

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  19. #10
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by koicrazysteve View Post
    Totally get what your saying about the Japs keeping best back!! unless huge bucks are exchanged!!

    I find body shape on koi seem to go wrong more than colour and pattern, most end up like cricket bats, or long tubes!!

    So if you went for a Tosai between £500 and £1000 what sort of percentage do you think that koi would have of fulfilling a perfect body over 70cm and keeping its colour and pattern?
    I reckon part of the answer to this question lies with where you buy the Koi as some dealers appear to have a better eye for choosing koi than others.

    There is one Dealer who is renowned for choosing high quality Tosai with high quality jumbo potential and is credited for getting consistent results.

    Then there is another Dealer selling 30cm Tosai at £1200 which to me look waaayyy over priced, and he still has many of them in stock a year or 2 later, and to my eye they don't look to have improved as much as I'd have hoped if I'd paid that kind of money.

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  21. #11
    Yes agree I have seen some fish for what I would say is ridiculous money, sometimes wonder if the ads are a joke.

    However for me I buy the koi because I like the look of it. Not a future investment although I do choose based on body shape then pattern. I am pleased to see how they turn out as long as they are healthy. I am not after a pond of grand champions. Which is just as well considering some of my mutts lol.

    Some people are in the hobby for different reasons I suppose.

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  23. #12
    Senior Member Rank = Jussai Ajm's Avatar
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    As am new to the hobbie am still at the point of enjoying the fish I buy Because of how they look at that time and love them more as they grow I dont really know how they are ment to turn out I suppose in my pond and my opinion it is ignorance is bliss because I cant be disheartened by how they turn out they are mine

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    Johnathan

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  25. #13
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Great post AJM.

    Wish I could be less 'materialistic' like yourself.

    I was attracted into Koi keeping by the images of large impressive gosanke majestically moving around like clouds in the breeze.

    This might be what people like me buy into, but the reality is different, they mainly turn into disease riddled mutts! Unless you pay big money.

    So the challenge is to get one of these stunning fish without paying big money..... keep buying cheap Tosai and hoping your numbers come up!

    Reminds me of when I traded penny oil stocks.... buying loads of different firms in the hope one of them strikes it big with a ginormous oil discovery. It's exactly the same thing as buying cheap Tosai, but in the long term 500x more expensive BP / Shell shares have performed better.

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  27. #14
    I remember when i first started 24 years ago.
    Our lass took me to a koi place for an anniversary present.

    Soon as i looked at this big tank. This koi whale hit me right between the eyes.
    A massive jumbo showa.
    I pulled the bloke and said how much.
    He said £5000. I was just about to say i will have it.
    Then he said he has just bought it.
    But you can have it for £5400.
    Our lass grabbed me by the coller
    And said these are what your getting.
    Price range from £12.00 to £28.00
    I walked out with a dozen of 6 inch fish.
    I learnt a big lesson over this story.
    6 of them fish died over the next couple of months. I was a green koi keeper.
    Just think on it. That £5400 fish could have been one of them.
    I now know it was NPS.
    But did nt have a clue then.
    So decided then to learn a lot more.
    And now i am more educated in koi keeping.
    There is no way i would pay anywhere near that money. To me
    And only me. It is a lottery game.
    In my opinion.
    I now buy small and grow on. And like to see how they develope.
    99 out of 100 as said. Is a mutt.
    But there my mutts
    And i love them to death.
    Fred

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  29. #15
    Senior Member Rank = Grand Champion andikoi's Avatar
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    well seeing as the majority of mine are others cast offs im gunna say NOOO lol,ive bought a few tosai from dealers but i never look and think that will be nice if it stays like that,i dont expect anything special i just want them to live lol,,,,,andi

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  31. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Davej View Post
    Are you talking gosanke?
    Hi Dave,

    Yes I'm talking Go sanke, I'm recently about to purchase a Tosai Showa from this dealer who sold me a Hi Utsuri 2 years ago he tends to specialise in Tosai it was 35cm and cost me £450, from Hirasawe, I grew it to 65cm and ended up selling it for £250 to a mate, the colour and pattern wasn't too bad, but the body shape had gone fin on tail tube, large in the body and pec fins stayed small, so not that pleasing to the eye

    This will be last try at Tosai, and I've stretched to £700 for this koi its female and the breeder is Murudo, if this doesn't work out, I guess i'll have to resort back to Nisai, and wait for certain dealers to drop their prices and be more realistic on what they charge!
    because lately the prices have become ludicrous! even for koi that I see as mutts!!

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  33. #17
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by koicrazysteve View Post
    Hi Dave,

    Yes I'm talking Go sanke, I'm recently about to purchase a Tosai Showa from this dealer who sold me a Hi Utsuri 2 years ago he tends to specialise in Tosai it was 35cm and cost me £450, from Hirasawe, I grew it to 65cm and ended up selling it for £250 to a mate, the colour and pattern wasn't too bad, but the body shape had gone fin on tail tube, large in the body and pec fins stayed small, so not that pleasing to the eye

    This will be last try at Tosai, and I've stretched to £700 for this koi its female and the breeder is Murudo, if this doesn't work out, I guess i'll have to resort back to Nisai, and wait for certain dealers to drop their prices and be more realistic on what they charge!
    because lately the prices have become ludicrous! even for koi that I see as mutts!!
    Humm you are rolling the dice with Showa...

    Totally agree prices are crazy for Koi of any quality. I have given up bothering to look.

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  35. #18
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davej View Post
    Humm you are rolling the dice with Showa...

    Totally agree prices are crazy for Koi of any quality. I have given up bothering to look.
    Prices are crazy from Dealers, yet hard to shift for a fraction of those prices in the 2nd hand market (outside of 18" ghost koi ebay pond closures - a couple being offered for £5000 at the moment!).

    The gentleman my Doitsu Sanke came from paid well into 4 figures for it, I paid a 20th of that. He was selling at the wrong time of year mind. He felt it was being let down by a tiny orange mark on the tail tube, which I still struggle to find.

    Koi Waterlife has a few Tosai on the website for big money. Maybe its my untrained eye that sees better value in Gatwick Koi's Nisai from the same breeders at half the money.

    When you see the devastation something like KHV can bring its a little easier to accept cost from those with proper facilities.

    I hear that British bred Showa Fry are exceptional value right now
    Last edited by RS2OOO; 17-06-2019 at 11:23 PM.

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  37. #19
    That's what I think Dave,

    Showa has so much that can go wrong! I already have a Takigawe Showa from Mike at Yumi koi that turned out like a cricket bat!

    It just seems like throwing good money at something that is a total gamble! and not even in our favour!

    I have noticed lately that there seems to be loads of koi on dealers sites not sold! I'm not saying that's a good thing, but I feel that some have lost reality of value, i asked a dealer I visited last week where the cheaper koi were, he turned round and said those are £600 upwards in far left tank!
    I may have this wrong! but I would have thought to most £600+ is quite a bit of money for a high class mutt
    Maybe with time they'll come back down to earth and bring their prices of koi with them!! who knows, but for time being its very frustrating not being able to have the koi you desire with such a price tag round its gills!!

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  39. #20
    It's a competitive market in Japan for Koi now. Talking to my dealer a while back and he said the buying has changed dramatically over the last few years. The Chinese are moving and buying everything decent and paying serious money. Therefore the other dealers are having to pay more to compete.

    British bred fish are getting better and better. Some of Adam Byers kohaku are some of the nicest I have seen (this is just my opinion) placing well in the show's and cutttlebrook have a great reputation.

    I have been looking for a something special recently but unless your willing to throw a few grand at a koi that is complete then you will struggle.

    Interested to see how Dave's fry turn out can't help but think surely with the numbers bred there has to be a couple of special ones in there. Due to the dramatic changes in Showa the skill will be not culling a grand champion early on lol





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