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  1. #41
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
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    The more often you introduce new fish to a system the more issues you will have. Parasites are not a big deal provided they are anticipated and managed appropriately.

    For a new koi keeper they are a pain. maybe 3 or 4 fish will be added through the year, all being naÔve to the critters present in the pond and all potentially bring new critters into the pond.

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  3. #42
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Grand Champion lee63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by milaz View Post
    Lee36,

    The stocking rules / guidance is precisely that - guidance for average setup trying to avoid novices stocking their new ponds to the level seen in commercial aquaculture.

    The reality can be quite different - as it is all complex relationship between amount of waste generated (function of water temperature, feeding rate and number of fish) on one side and quality of bio-filtration (function of bio filter design / flow / retention time, bio-media and its active surface and maturity of bio-film among others) driving the speed of bio-degradation of the waste. All of this multiplied with amount of fresh water exchanged weekly and maturity of the pond - min two years old one can be considered matured enough.....

    Bottom line - I guess all I am trying to say here it is the simple fact, that each pond is very unique ecosystem on its own - so actual stocking level will depend on all the different things listed above plus filter / pond maintenance schedules as well.

    Someone may have great results with by all rules substantially overstocked pond while someone else may repeatedly run into various issues with less than recommended stocking level.

    So my five cents here are it all depends on the koi keeper - how well he knows his setup and how well is maintaining it......
    Pretty much the un-summarised version of what i said bud ha ha, i do understand and do agree with you How Many Koi do you have in what pond volume?


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  5. #43
    Senior Member Rank = Rokusai Tom Koi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    Think that might depend on which sellers!

    There are well known dealers with solid reputations, but I'm not convinced their fish are clean and I'm certain their fish are not heat ramped.

    I'm sure there's Dealers who quarantine against KHV and treat against Costia etc, but see flukes as part and parcel of koi keeping and don't worry too much about them.
    I may well have asked this before, on here, what is meant by heat ramping?
    Thanks

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  7. #44
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Basically means water temperature is increased and decreased through a temperature range that is known to induce KHV in fish that carry the virus but don't show any symptoms.

    The theory being that Koi who don't show any KHV symptoms after heat ramping are unlikely to be carriers and can be sold.

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  9. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    Think that might depend on which sellers!

    There are well known dealers with solid reputations, but I'm not convinced their fish are clean and I'm certain their fish are not heat ramped.

    I'm sure there's Dealers who quarantine against KHV and treat against Costia etc, but see flukes as part and parcel of koi keeping and don't worry too much about them.
    Well - no fish is ever clean / free of parasites / bugs. It would be against nature and impossible. The key word here is BALANCE - by good husbandry and stress avoidance it is the immunity of koi, which keeps all pathogens on the outside of their slime coat. So anything stressful and balance is gone due to weakened immunity - hence need to step in with appropriate treatment.

    So avoiding stress factors (water chemistry, temperature fluctuations etc.) = no need to step in with any treatment - not really related to stocking density - my humble opinion - but off course with low density you can get away with poorer filtration due the simple equation of less fish = less pollution created.

    In my book it all boils down to the well being of our koi - I do not know about you, but I am really not comfortable in crowded train, bus or metro - equally our koi need enough free swimming water volume without constantly bouncing into each other - here I believe the rule of maximum one koi per 1000 L of pond volume is a good guidance.

    Just my five cents I guess.....
    You get what you pay for - or better - what you make yourself.

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  11. #46
    Such a diverse topic with too many varying factors to make a call on. Size of fish, temp of water, filtration set up, maintenance schedule, food fed and how often etc etc.

    Start off with low numbers and slowly build up letting your filters catch up. Watch your fish they will let you know when they are unhappy.

    There is something to be said for sourcing your fish from same source. When I moved from Wales to Yorkshire I brought 3 koi with me. The rest I sourced from one dealer. The only time I have every had a parasite was two weeks ago when I had fluke.

    I have grown fry on from cutttlebrook and didn't have an issue there either but they where all in separate ponds to my main one.

    Just my opinion.

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  13. #47
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    As you say Dave it is a diverse topic.

    Another thought is whether stocking levels have a link to growth. Does anyone else find if you have more Koi thus creating more competition for food they eat more and grow better?

    When I started with just 3 Koi feeding them wasn't particularly interesting, they'd come up individually and take a few pellets here and there. Once up to 8 Koi there was a notable level of competition between the bigger ones but nothing to write home about.

    Now with 12 Koi feeding times are chaos, my heart sinks as Koi come flying out of the water, I'm covered head to toe in splashes, handfuls of food are gone in seconds. If I feed them again just 15 minutes later the same thing happens and they're acting like they've not eaten in a Month.

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  15. #48
    Senior Member Rank = Rokusai Tom Koi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    As you say Dave it is a diverse topic.

    Another thought is whether stocking levels have a link to growth. Does anyone else find if you have more Koi thus creating more competition for food they eat more and grow better?

    When I started with just 3 Koi feeding them wasn't particularly interesting, they'd come up individually and take a few pellets here and there. Once up to 8 Koi there was a notable level of competition between the bigger ones but nothing to write home about.

    Now with 12 Koi feeding times are chaos, my heart sinks as Koi come flying out of the water, I'm covered head to toe in splashes, handfuls of food are gone in seconds. If I feed them again just 15 minutes later the same thing happens and they're acting like they've not eaten in a Month.
    I guess its a case of getting there first before its all eaten and then missing out on a meal, as you say its a competition.

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  17. #49
    Member Rank = Nisai Mike Bass's Avatar
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    I am well over the planned stocking level due to the grow on fry surviving in fact thriving and not moving as many on to my sons pond as originally planned, that being said they all seem happy fed in small amounts throughout the day with a mix of sinking 2mm and floating 3-4mm food.

    It is fun to watch as the usual 3 or 4 food lovers come to the surface at which point the smaller more nervous ones that have been darting about for the smaller sinking food will come up to the top as well.
    Like you say having high levels of fish if not high levels in the terms of size keeps them feeding where my sons pond with lower stock levels they are not so active.
    image.jpg

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  19. #50
    Senior Member Rank = Rokusai Tom Koi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Bass View Post
    I am well over the planned stocking level due to the grow on fry surviving in fact thriving and not moving as many on to my sons pond as originally planned, that being said they all seem happy fed in small amounts throughout the day with a mix of sinking 2mm and floating 3-4mm food.

    It is fun to watch as the usual 3 or 4 food lovers come to the surface at which point the smaller more nervous ones that have been darting about for the smaller sinking food will come up to the top as well.
    Like you say having high levels of fish if not high levels in the terms of size keeps them feeding where my sons pond with lower stock levels they are not so active.
    image.jpg
    That's where the Chagio comes into its own, always the most confident to feed which encourages the others.

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  21. #51
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by milaz View Post
    Well - no fish is ever clean / free of parasites / bugs. It would be against nature and impossible. The key word here is BALANCE - by good husbandry and stress avoidance it is the immunity of koi, which keeps all pathogens on the outside of their slime coat.

    .
    I think I disagree with this.

    In Goldfish circles (i.e clubs, proper dealers etc) it is not acceptable to buy a fish with parasites. I've attended Goldfish shows, club meetings, table shows, contributed to and read Monthly club bulletins for donkeys years, and I don't recall any discussions about fish carrying diseases / parasites except when the conversation is to lambast pet shop / garden centre outlets selling cheap 'mass produced' low quality fish.

    I don't know anything about tropical fish, but again I think there might be similarities in that sense.

    But with Koi it seems much more accepted.

    Why is it acceptable?

    Look at the money being made off the back of it - A dealer imports and sells 100 koi carrying flukes in 1 shipment and that's 100+ potential sales of fluke treatments for the 'pharmaceuticals', but would only be 1 sale if the treatment was carried out at source. Multiply those numbers against 100's of Dealers selling 10's of thousands of Koi.

    There is of course one obvious difference in that Koi are raised in mud ponds and Goldfish are generally raised in closed environments which significantly limits the risk of parasites.

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  23. #52
    Senior Member Rank = Jussai Ajm's Avatar
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    Money money money mate . Makes the world go round I agree with you there like .

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  25. #53
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    As you say Dave it is a diverse topic.

    Another thought is whether stocking levels have a link to growth. Does anyone else find if you have more Koi thus creating more competition for food they eat more and grow better?

    When I started with just 3 Koi feeding them wasn't particularly interesting, they'd come up individually and take a few pellets here and there. Once up to 8 Koi there was a notable level of competition between the bigger ones but nothing to write home about.

    Now with 12 Koi feeding times are chaos, my heart sinks as Koi come flying out of the water, I'm covered head to toe in splashes, handfuls of food are gone in seconds. If I feed them again just 15 minutes later the same thing happens and they're acting like they've not eaten in a Month.
    There is, I believe some science linking NH3 levels to growth rates. If the stock is higher then the NH3 will be higher.. That's the Theory.

    In practice, 5000 fry in 1000gallons trumps 10,000 in the same volume...

    I need to move a few fish on..

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  27. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    I think I disagree with this.

    In Goldfish circles (i.e clubs, proper dealers etc) it is not acceptable to buy a fish with parasites. I've attended Goldfish shows, club meetings, table shows, contributed to and read Monthly club bulletins for donkeys years, and I don't recall any discussions about fish carrying diseases / parasites except when the conversation is to lambast pet shop / garden centre outlets selling cheap 'mass produced' low quality fish.

    I don't know anything about tropical fish, but again I think there might be similarities in that sense.

    But with Koi it seems much more accepted.

    Why is it acceptable?

    Look at the money being made off the back of it - A dealer imports and sells 100 koi carrying flukes in 1 shipment and that's 100+ potential sales of fluke treatments for the 'pharmaceuticals', but would only be 1 sale if the treatment was carried out at source. Multiply those numbers against 100's of Dealers selling 10's of thousands of Koi.

    There is of course one obvious difference in that Koi are raised in mud ponds and Goldfish are generally raised in closed environments which significantly limits the risk of parasites.

    Just not to be misunderstood please - I am for sure not suggesting we should be buying sick fish - not at all - we need to choose only sellers, who really do take good care of their fish - and I fully agree also with the statement, that more sources we choose our fish from creates more different potential issues so we should stick with the proven one. It is similar to keeping Discus in tropical aquarium at home - different sources can introduce different pathogens may be not harmful to the original fish, but fish from other source may not be immune to it as it did not face it any earlier - and full original Discuss population can be killed in the matter of days - this is especially true when introducing Asian breed Discuss to Europe or N-A bred community - in comparison with Discuss Koi carps do have stronger immune system and can cope better with many different pathogens - but why to increase the chances for something to go wrong by buying new fish from not fully trusted source.....

    What I am saying it is, that there is no way to create 100% sterile environment in our ponds - but we need to do everything possible to avoid stress of our koi (and goldfish or whatever other pet we care for) as this is single most important precaution for their well being - any treatment in fact - while treating the one outbreak - potentially weakens the fish - and whole pond ecosystem so another pathogen may prevail in near future.

    Nothing else - so for sure nobody should be buying from dealer, who does not have healthy fish and does not take proper care of them.
    You get what you pay for - or better - what you make yourself.

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  29. #55
    Member Rank = Sansai Mode's Avatar
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    Pond capacity in litres / gallons: 46,000 L/ 10,100 G
    How many koi over 30cm: None
    How many koi under 30cm: 11
    How many non-koi: None
    Main filtration unit: Nexus 320 plus 5 Bay Cloverleaf Genesis II (Really want to change the 5 bay for a large drum!)
    Have you had to treat for parasites/bacterial infections (exc. injuries) in the last 12 months, if so, how many times: None so far (touch wood!)

    New pond - been filled with water since End April (7-8 weeks) with Koi for that timescale)

    Monitoring with Seneye and weekly JBL test kit. Generally stable parameters but Ammonia not yet at zero!


    10,118Gal 46,000l
    Nexus320
    Cloverleaf GenesisII(5 bay)
    2x13,000lph pumps, 2xEvoAqua75wUV
    7 Koi

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  31. #56
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Supreme Champion Davej's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RS2OOO View Post
    I think I disagree with this.

    In Goldfish circles (i.e clubs, proper dealers etc) it is not acceptable to buy a fish with parasites. I've attended Goldfish shows, club meetings, table shows, contributed to and read Monthly club bulletins for donkeys years, and I don't recall any discussions about fish carrying diseases / parasites except when the conversation is to lambast pet shop / garden centre outlets selling cheap 'mass produced' low quality fish.

    I don't know anything about tropical fish, but again I think there might be similarities in that sense.

    But with Koi it seems much more accepted.

    Why is it acceptable?

    Look at the money being made off the back of it - A dealer imports and sells 100 koi carrying flukes in 1 shipment and that's 100+ potential sales of fluke treatments for the 'pharmaceuticals', but would only be 1 sale if the treatment was carried out at source. Multiply those numbers against 100's of Dealers selling 10's of thousands of Koi.

    There is of course one obvious difference in that Koi are raised in mud ponds and Goldfish are generally raised in closed environments which significantly limits the risk of parasites.
    I think that when a Koi comes out of the Dealers QT is should be pretty much critter free, but the practices of QT does vary between Dealers.

    Thereafter if a fish goes in to the sales tanks where it mixes with stock that has been in there a while then it is more than likely it will start to collect a few "friends".

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  33. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Davej View Post
    I think that when a Koi comes out of the Dealers QT is should be pretty much critter free, but the practices of QT does vary between Dealers.

    Thereafter if a fish goes in to the sales tanks where it mixes with stock that has been in there a while then it is more than likely it will start to collect a few "friends".
    It is enough if wild duck or other bird visits outdoor koi pond - it can carry on its feathers unwanted black passengers from any wild lake visited earlier - so only fully enclosed pond can help preventing it - this is where koi strong immunity must kick in....
    You get what you pay for - or better - what you make yourself.

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  35. #58
    Extreme Koi Member Rank = Grand Champion lee63's Avatar
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    I agree with above that there is alot of factors to take into consideration in regards to stocking - volume ratio having an effect on issues/parasites etc... think i said similar above but Iím a firm believer that the more you mess with things the more likely issues are to arise How Many Koi do you have in what pond volume? The ponds maturity plays a huge part in keeping the balance right. Donít get me wrong if your planning on throwing 20 big koi into a 500 gal puddle with a pressure filter for filtration and feeding a kilo of grub a day then you are going to face massive problems but most of us know better How Many Koi do you have in what pond volume? and its down to us to advise relatively new people to ponds and the hobby against it. Advice is only as good as someone interprets it though How Many Koi do you have in what pond volume? and wether its listened too or not is another one.
    I also think flow rate and turnover lack discussion a bit with new ponds too. Having a 10,000 gal pond with a 1000 ltr/hr pump running its filtration can be as bad as a 500 gal with a 20,000 ltr/hr pump running it etc... There really is so many variables its unreal but most find their sweet spots and happy medium How Many Koi do you have in what pond volume?



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  37. #59
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    Thanks for posting Lee. Forgot I was meant to do some number crunching based on the results of this thread.... Best I get round to it soon.

    I think turnover can be quite a complicated subject because each individual pond has different needs and the owner different desires i.e heavy feeding and rapid growth or just keeping the water perfect without wasting unnecessary electricity.

    More complications arise because its difficult to calculate accurate flow rates due to head loss and obstacles such as UVs. Also different filters have different capabilities which can be enhanced or diminished at different flow rates.

    I've a Nexus 220 with a 20k variable pump and make use of its different settings for different purposes which appear to make it work better for me but it probably does nothing in reality.

    The main setting I use is 66% of max flow (13k lph less head loss and restrictive UV loss = 10500 lph at a guess) because that seems to work best - crystal clear water, reasonably good surface water movement across the entire pond and runs at a reasonable 87 watts.

    After cleaning the Nexus there seems to be more fines for a day so I turn the flow down to 30% to catch fines then turn it back up to 66%.

    Before cleaning the Nexus there's lots of muck on the pond floor so I turn the flow up to 100% for an hour to clear it.

    Can't say I notice any change in parameters such as ammonia at any flow rate only to say 100% power is probably too fast for the bio and 30% too slow.

    If I had a high-flow drum I'd probably choose an entirely different flow rate based solely on max flow I could obtain whilst keeping bio at its most efficient.

    I'd imagine every pond is unique due to these variable factors.

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  39. #60
    Senior Member Rank = Adult Champion RS2OOO's Avatar
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    The facts and Figures....

    15 people responded to the question, was hoping for 25+ tbh (Frim?) but lets go with what we've got.

    Between us we have 55,830 gallons, or 1/4 of a million litres (253,821) of water in our main back garden ponds.

    That averages around 17,000 litres / 3740 imp. gallons each. (A worthless figure because most respondents had extra large ponds).

    We have a total of 267 Koi. (This includes Ghosties but excludes any other non-koi or Koi fry!!).

    Of those 267 Koi 142 of them are over 30cm (53%).

    Which means on average we have 1 Koi per 950 Litres / 208 imperial gallons. That's quite interesting for me because it exactly matches my current stocking level.

    If we include the 48 non-Koi our ponds average 1 fish per 805 Litres / 177 imp. gallons.

    Between the 15 of us we've administered 13 pond treatments in the last 12 Months. Flukes seem to be the critter we like to kill most.

    The sample size is way too small to make any proper conclusion, but going by just the 15 of us there's an indication that Multibay and Nexus users treat their pond more often than drum filter users. Would have been very interesting if we had 50+ pond stats to see if there's any weight to that possible "Exclusive - Breaking News".

    And just for a laugh, the 15 of us are pumping approximately 2 billion, 223 million, 471 thousand 960 litres of water per year. That is one day's entire water supply for London!


    EDIT: Forgot to add, 6% of us keep a Mountain Bike in the Greenhouse.
    Last edited by RS2OOO; 24-06-2019 at 11:53 PM.

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